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Extracting from "10x Rue Extract" Options
 
merkin
#1 Posted : 8/27/2020 11:18:16 AM

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I have been considering this as a way to save shipping costs. While product in seeds is relatively inexpensive shipping to where I am is most definitely not, often 3-4x the cost of rue seeds. But searching here I see many comments like "people have had problems" etc but no definitive comments about it or its fitness for further extraction to get to the Harmalas (as opposed to direct consumption).

Is it possible? Surely if the extract can be eaten it contains the alkaloids? Also its described as an "ethanolic" extraction. What exactly is this stuff in relation to seeds and the usual extraction teks which start with boiling?

Can you boil this and then base it? Does anyone have any idea or direct experience with this? Its really cheap so getting two kilos is less than 30bux, but shipping a LOT more.

In description on one site: "0.2g to 0.3g contains enough harmine and harmaline to block MAO activity for about six hours" - - seems to imply it contains the necessary alks?

So - can one feasibly and effectively extract Harmine/DHH from an "ethanolic extract" 10x of Rue?

Thanks

 

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Elrik
#2 Posted : 8/27/2020 6:10:30 PM

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Lets consider what is in the seeds. They have protein, various sugars and carbohydrates, fixed and volatile oils, and organic salts of the alkaloids.
Industrially [roughly speaking], the seeds are ground, shoved into a pipe, and hot ethanol is forced through the pipe until it comes out colorless. The ethanol 'tea' is then filtered and the ethanol is distilled off to be reused, leaving the "10X extract" behind. That is the most likely method.
The resulting hardened taffy-like extract would be a mixture of alcohol soluble sugars, other small organics like coloring matter and acids, fixed oils, any volatile oils that didn't co-distill with the alcohol, and organic salts of the alkaloids.
I can imagine the difficulties people vaguely mention. They're trying to get a fat filled dried taffy to dissolve in water [hallucinogenic rock candy Shocked too bad it tastes like harmalas]. If I was trying to refine it first I would break it up into sand or powder [wear gloves, as the powder would stick to the moisture in your skin] and then I would apply one of two simple approaches, either I would try to initially dissolve it in a warm alcohol-water mixture to help the fat move around, or I would be patient and simmer it in slightly vinegar acidified water with stirring for a good long time to get the fat to melt while the sugars and alkaloid slowly dissolve from it. Just dumping all the crushed extract in would make it immediately harden into one chunk again, so cast a spoonful of crushed extract in and stir, repeat as appropriate.
I would probably choose option 2: smash it up and simmer for hours in mildly acid water, replacing any water that boils off before it is dissolved. I'd then let it cool to only mildly scalding, filter it through a coffee filter, probably boil again to remove much of the excess water, dissolve in 15 grams of rock salt for each remaining 100ml while still scalding, let cool, refrigerate for a day, collect the manske crystals.
It could also be based, if you go that route remember not to add base to hot water.

I wonder what they do with the essential oil byproduct. I love the coffee-grounds like smell of harmala seed.
 
merkin
#3 Posted : 8/31/2020 11:26:19 AM

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Elrik wrote:
The resulting hardened taffy-like extract would be a mixture of alcohol soluble sugars, other small organics like coloring matter and acids, fixed oils, any volatile oils that didn't co-distill with the alcohol, and organic salts of the alkaloids.

Thanks. They all seem to be offering this as a brown coloured powder so it seems they have dried that 'taffy' or whatever residue they got. I have seen Caapi extracts as a resin though, but this is definitely rue. I suspect you are spot on about their method.

Elrik wrote:
I would probably choose option 2: smash it up and simmer for hours in mildly acid water, replacing any water that boils off before it is dissolved. I'd then let it cool to only mildly scalding, filter it through a coffee filter, probably boil again to remove much of the excess water, dissolve in 15 grams of rock salt for each remaining 100ml while still scalding, let cool, refrigerate for a day, collect the manske crystals.

I think that essentially I take from your response that the alkaloids are actually in there somewhere and it is then the challenge to get to the point where it dovetails into the standard 'seed' tek. I was thinking to try and dissolve in water - if not, try vinegar water. If it dissolves in that then boiling and manske I'd imagine is the next best step as you said.

Essentially treat the powder as a form of ground seeds? Anyway, at the price its certainly worth a try as the shipping cost is a 0.1x advantage over the seeds.
 
monomind
#4 Posted : 8/31/2020 11:45:27 AM

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A while ago I got some rue extract in powder form. It was cheap and I thought it might be an easier starting point for an extraction rather than working with seed.
I tried to acidify, to manske, to basify... but nothing happened.
No alks in any form precipitated.

 
Kumarajiva
#5 Posted : 8/31/2020 2:37:42 PM

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monomind wrote:
A while ago I got some rue extract in powder form. It was cheap and I thought it might be an easier starting point for an extraction rather than working with seed.
I tried to acidify, to manske, to basify... but nothing happened.
No alks in any form precipitated.



It was not rue extract then. Probably some other maoi sold as rue with some filler.
If its true rue extract its ok to use it as starting material.

Ethanolic extraction will be heavily contaminated with oils though.
I used to do ethanolic extraction with soxhlet and had to distill the alcohol (adding water in the middle of distillation)
and was left with two distinct fractions of oils floating on top and alkaloids dissolved in water below, and then separate it.
Gate Gate Pāragate Pārasaṃgate Bodhi Svāhā
 
Elrik
#6 Posted : 8/31/2020 9:12:42 PM

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That is a good point. It certainly is possible that some or all harmala extracts are MAOI adulterated fillers.
Like the cheapest off-spec instant coffee available + pharmaceuticals.
This kind of thing happens more than one might think. Remember the marijuana alternative 'Spice' that was sold years ago, it said it was natural herbs but it was synthetic cannabinoids.
Many mainstream bodybuilding supplements, over the years, have been found to contain pharmaceutical drugs or analogs.
Much of the ecstasy or RCs sold contain little or none of the claimed drug. Heroin that's nothing but fentanyl, etc.

If you try this, start with a smaller order and don't trust it until you see a solution glow vibrant green under blacklight and crystallize from a salted solution.
Then, based on the yield you can decide if it is a source that can be scaled up to provide all you need.
 
merkin
#7 Posted : 9/14/2020 2:13:50 PM

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Thanks for all the input. I have ordered a 'free sample' (1 kg!!) just had to pay the shipping of around forty odd bux. Hopefully it works (a lot) better than monomind's extract!
 
merkin
#8 Posted : 5/20/2021 5:45:59 PM

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OK. I finally got hold of this extract powder and would like to see If I can get something out of it. It is labelled "Peganum Harmala Extract" and they say via solvent extraction (ethanolic?).

It is a light brown color, much like slightly cleaned full spectrum, very fine and dissolves relatively easily in warm water and also slightly ~pH3 vinegar/water.

I took 5g of it and dissolved in 300ml vinegar/water mix and it turns the familiar red brown color.

First took half of the liquid, diluted again to 300ml with dH2O. Dropped in some KOH solution until pH hit over 10 while stirring. Nothing precipitated at all. Added more KOH solution but it remained same color and translucent. No clouds no nothing. Very slight flourescence.

Took other half, added dH2O up to 300ml (pH3,8 ) and heated to ~90°C and added to same volume 80°C sat salt solution. That is slowly cooling right now.

Any pointers as to what to do or try - given that the goal would be to get to extracting a harmala FB or HCl mix I can later separate? Basically to have this at some point become a known step in the regular extraction tek process - using this 'extract' rather than starting with rue seeds. Since I have a kilo of it theres room for experimentation here.

Thanks
 
downwardsfromzero
#9 Posted : 5/20/2021 6:56:55 PM

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Quote:
Very slight flourescence.
Unfortunately, I'd consider that a bad sign considering anything more than the slightest trace of betacarbolines (well, in this case principally harmaline, I guess) produces a quite noticeable fluorescence.

It seems fair to say that Syrian Rue extract does not necessarily equate to betacarbolines. A clear indication of the solvent used would be useful, as would the actual plant parts used. Making the assumption it's from the seeds is just that, even if it's pretty safe to do so. It's still better to be sure.

You might have to basify that whole kilo to stand a chance of recovering anything. It's smelling a bit like a scam at the moment, but I hope the Manske attempt works out better for you.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
starway7
#10 Posted : 5/24/2021 1:40:26 PM

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what about the common belief that all of rues actives are on the outside of the seed casings?

And the white inside of the seed is not wanted?

Could there be something on the inner white part of seed that is needed?


I did a simple extraction of outer material on the rue seed using grain alcohol....here are photos below... is not this the rue actives?






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downwardsfromzero
#11 Posted : 5/24/2021 9:20:15 PM

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starway7 wrote:
what about the common belief that all of rues actives are on the outside of the seed casings?

And the white inside of the seed is not wanted?

Could there be something on the inner white part of seed that is needed?


I did a simple extraction of outer material on the rue seed using grain alcohol....here are photos below... is not this the rue actives?

Well, clearly it's the rue actives. And we can see that you've made an extract from whole rue seeds.

Imagine this - you do a couple more soaks on those rue seeds. Another soak would have but the faintest fluorescence, but you don't do that. Instead, you grind up the seeds, boil them in a few changes of water and then evaporated the painstakingly filtered aqueous extract. Then you'd have a very slightly fluorescent rue extract that is, in all likelihood, of little use as a source of harmala alkaloids. And you wouldn't be lying if you described it as "Syrian rue extract" either, but without any further explanation it is at least disingenuous to do so.

The inner part of the seed will contain fats, protein and starch but I can't comment on what secondary metabolites might be present without having to look it up.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
merkin
#12 Posted : 5/26/2021 12:25:27 PM

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Yeah it would seem you’re right about this downwardsfromzero.
Manske gave no result. Saturated some more, nothing. Serious basing of dissolved powder in hot water with KOH, absolutely no milkyness. Would seem pretty hopeless to expect to get anything out of this.
 
 
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