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Vasicinone, Vasicine and Deoxyvasicine Options
 
Silly(c)One
#21 Posted : 4/13/2013 2:49:26 PM

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I mean, we usually say that Ayahuasca can't be reduced to its chemical components, and that pharmahuasca is usually much less nauseous.
Is it because pharmahuasca is only harmine and harmaline (+THH in case caapi was extracted) and other alks have been lost ?
Is there an equivalent chemical to vasicine in caapi, with all these wonderful effects (apart the abortive one of course) ?
 

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SnozzleBerry
#22 Posted : 4/13/2013 3:08:57 PM

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Harmalas can cause nausea on their own, but extracted alkaloids do not have all of the tannins present in a brew, which can reduce nausea.

Silly(c)One wrote:
Is there an equivalent chemical to vasicine in caapi,

I don't believe so.
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The little mouse
#23 Posted : 4/29/2013 4:12:57 AM
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http://www.singingtothep.../02/women-and-ayahuasca/

" Among most Amazonian groups, women do not drink ayahuasca at all, primarily because of fear of spontaneous abortion; the Shuar are unusual in that there is no difference in ayahuasca intake based on sex. Among the Shipibo, for example, the women are the sole possessors of the ayahuasca-inspired designs with which they decorate their pottery and clothing, yet the women themselves do not drink ayahuasca."

I put the whole qoute in for two reasons, first: it sounds really cool, the women dont drink and they know all these designs? how wild.....

Second, because I know two shipibo women who drink on the regular and the are Indigenious.... Like full blown jungle shit, lived with them in Peru for a while... I drank with the younger one for her first time ever when she was 13... So I am saying take the first portion with a grain of salt Razz

I found somethings about harmalas cause uterine contractions and easing pregnancy... will site if I can in the morning Smile
 
wearepeople
#24 Posted : 6/19/2013 3:49:08 PM

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endlessness wrote:
In any case, a simple A/B should do the trick in getting these alkaloids out, evene in that plant you have (it should also get any other alkaloids that are present, are there any other?). And to separate from harmine/harmaline in rue, just do a manske, then when the precipitated alkaloids (harmine/harmaline) are filtered, add a base, which should precipitate the vasicine/vasicinone/deoxyvasicine


On the Left: According to the quote above, vasicine/vasicinone/deoxyvasicine after adding base (lye) to the liquid harmine/harmaline were filtered from. (I used lye because I have no intent of consuming these in any way)

Also, I highly doubt the vasicine/vasicinone/deoxyvasicine in the picture below is remotely close to pure because this source lists vasicine as a "white to yellow crystalline powder".

On the Right: filtered & squeezed harmine/harmaline after adding sodium carbonate as base.
wearepeople attached the following image(s):
DSCI0003.JPG (3,168kb) downloaded 577 time(s).
+ ---- + ---- + ---- + ---- + ---- + ---- + ---- + ---- DMT Nexus Research ---- + ---- + ---- + ---- + ---- + ---- + ---- + ---- +
 
wearepeople
#25 Posted : 10/24/2013 6:49:33 AM

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Has anyone come across reagent colorimetric results for the Vasicine group of chemicals?

I can't seem to find anything.

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SnozzleBerry
#26 Posted : 10/24/2013 4:23:55 PM

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wap, I've got something interesting to share...

A while back, I sent in some rue extract for analysis. I was curious about the composition of the "waste water" from the manske, so I threw in some base, collected the precipitates, washed them a bit and sent them in for analysis too.

The results came back as essentially harmine/harmaline for both the "proper" extract, as well as the waste water precipitates. I was just thinking about this yesterday, and the need to repeat this experiment. Perhaps you and I could coordinate some follow-up Smile
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In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names.
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jfreak
#27 Posted : 12/12/2013 3:34:10 AM
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Hyperdimensional Cuttlefish wrote:
I like the feel of the vaporized full spectrum Rue freebase vs the Manske separated freebase IMO. Found the same stuff as you, so no more Manske for me. Only the Gibran tek in the wiki....besides it's dead simple and less potential loss.


nice, i just did the gibran tek with rue, so fast and easy. glad to hear of others doing the same. the result is very smooth to smoke barely tastes like anything. and it synergizes well with cannabis. I have yet to make a changa blend with it. I'm thinking of blue lotus, calea, full spectrum rue freebase, and acacialoids...if that's a word. it should be.
 
mew
#28 Posted : 12/14/2013 5:22:38 PM

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Vasicine/Peganine is a quinazoline type alkaloid mainly obtained from the plant Adhatoda vasica (zeylanica)/Justicia adhatoda (Acanthaceae)

I've read that Justicia pectoralis is used with yopo/virola/wilka, most likely some use(d) justicia adhatoda.


following this line of thought, i now give credit to another MAOI + DMT combo found in the amazon
for mew this is novel because he had only recognized ayahuasca as such a divine combo, yet here we see another possibility.

I've read that aztecs did mushroom and chocolate enemas, which sounds pretty gross when considering the sanitation of the time
 
SyZyGyPSy
#29 Posted : 12/18/2013 7:58:07 PM
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Hello everyone, I love and miss you all... haven't posted for years due to having had a kid and now having to be a responsible father, but have continued following the path to the best of my abilities.

I have worked with rue for years and yes, after a manske NaCl precip, I add sodium carbonate and get something much darker colored - quantity can vary greatly from batch to batch.

Am surprised to hear this fraction tested and came up as harmine/harmaline... am questioning ability of testing method used to distinguish...

Don't feel these are "toxic," am convinced they have their place. Have isolated "full spectrum" rue alkaloids by skipping the NaCl precip and going straight to the sodium carb precip, they resulting product is darker...

Have been meaning to research dosage of vasicine etc. for its use in vedic medicine for treating asthma. Much promise there...

Normally use NaCl precip'd harmine/harmaline isolate (in my vocabulary, "harmaloids"Pleased for group sessions just to be safe, but still isolate the others as well cuz it would be a waste and disrespectful to the plant not to. Never know when you may meet sum1 with asthma and have the ability to improve the quality of their lives, or need to help a pregnant woman in labor...

The UDV and other groups drink aya thruoughout pregnancy, the "quinazaloids" are not present in caapi (at least not in significant quantity) and I've seen enough to be convinced it's safe during pregnancy, as are NaCl precip'd "harmaloids" which SWIM gave to his girl and himself to assist in delivery of his son, along with full spec Mimosa extract and a bit o' cactus alks - both him and her credit the assistance of the medicine with the successful delivery of their child, as it helped her work thru psychological issues of doubt regarding her capacity to be a good mother that was holding her back from surrendering to the delivery process and, after 28 hours of labor, produced a healthy baby boy whose health, growth rate, and intelligence continually astound everyone who crosses paths with him.

I know of countless cases where aya and or cactus medicine have been used to aid delivery of a child. It's infinitely superior to anesthetics, epidurals, and other mechanisms that prevent the mother's body from communicating with itself and coordinating the delivery process, IMO. I do not say that lightly, but have heavily researched the topic from both practical and pharmacological standpoints.

To everyone who remembers me from the past, know I love and miss you all... just hadda chime in on what I feel to be an important topic, share my experience from working with rue for years and researching the use of such medicines in pregnancy, and also say that a word is what you make it and terms like acacialoids, etc. can and should be used whenever it's clear what they mean... languages change, and the purpose of a word is to convey meaning, not to satisfy some anal retentive loser's idea of what they think a word should be in the mind of someone who has no concept of the evolution of language or its true purpose - to communicate ideas. Back when I posted regularly, I used the term "harmaloids" often enough that for a while it became a common term on this forum. Ah, the good 'ol daze...

One last thing: on the topic of what makes your purge, yes tannins and other stuff can be a factor, but one's toxicity level (both chemical and energetic) is also a huge factor. Having witnessed countless purges from isolated compounds, and seen the correlation between one's state of toxicity (or lack thereof), there is a distinct difference between barfing from having ingested too many tannins and other nauseating compounds (e.g. SWIM's first two attempts at drinking an aqueous mimosa brew, where the tannins etc. made him barf before enough tryptamines absorbed to produce effects), vs. when purified compounds of high vibratory frequency clash with molecular or energetic components of relatively low frequency, and the former wins, expelling the latter. This results in the cleansing of one's being, producing an improved state.

This could be supported scientifically (and has been by hundreds of observations made by swim) wherein purified compounds are used, and if one is "clean" from having worked with them, one experiences no nausea or purge. This can be differentiated from tolerance in that if said person ingests toxins or allows negative energy into his/her being, the subsequent ingestion of purified compounds will likely result in a purge whereas so long as one remains clean, no urge to purge is felt.

Don't take my word for anything written above, but do keep an open mind and seek to verify or refute these claims for yourself. THAT is true science - thinking that talk of "energetic states" or "vibratory frequencies" is spiritual mumbo-jumbo just because it hasn't yet been proven by science is "sceintific dogma," because it hasn't been DIS-proven either, and a true scientist does not draw conclusions until there is sufficient evidence to reject the null hypothesis.

Keep in mind: it is a known fact that all molecules vibrate at a certain frequency. Just as one could put a tuning fork in every seat in an empty football stadium, stand in the middle of the field, and strike a tuning fork of their own, every fork in the statium would vibrate IF they were tuned to the same frequency. All things work this way. Harmonic vibratory frequencies are a form of synchronization that can account for communication between cells in a body that exists in a harmonic state, and may account for phenomenae of communication with "plant spirits" when one ingests molecules from a plant and they intercalate into one's nervous system, causing one to "tune in" to the frequency of the plant and/or anything else existing on that wavelength (entity contact, etc.).

We see things like television (before cable anyway), radio, wireless devices, cell phones, etc. that all convey information over vast distances using vibratory synchronization. Why should we assume similar mechanisms do not exist in our bodies, when it explains so many "unexplainable" phenomenae (telepathy, etc.) that, for beings who are "in tune," happen WAY too often to be written off as mere coincidence? Doubt me? GOOD! Test my hypothesis by cleansing your vessel and tuning in and watch what happens. I was a skeptic too until I tested it for myself, and am now as convinced of the reality of that which I speak as I am of anything else in this world.

SO, getting back on topic: determine what vibratory state you wish to attain, and ingest the right molecules to fine tune your instrument (by that I mean your body) to the proper frequency. THIS is the essence of health - to exist in a state of harmony, with all biorhythms synchronized and all your molecules energetically in tune. E=MC squared - matter IS energy. The wave/particle duality can be applied to everything - it's most evident in light because it exists at the highest vibratory frequency, where as the densest, low energy matter we know of (Bohs-Einstein condensation) has virtually no vibratory energy, being as close to zero degrees Kelvin as we've managed to attain thus far. In between these two extremes exist everything else... which end of the spectrum would you rather be closest to?

Seek to raise your frequency closer to that of light (note the ascending frequency of the colors associated with the chakras, for instance). By doing so you will become healthier, physically, spiritually, and emotionally. Try it and prove me wrong, I dare you!

If you're having trouble breathing, perhaps the quinazaloids from harmala my help you tune your biology to a more ideal state. If you're pregnant, perhaps not. Most molecules can be medicine or poison, depending on what state you're in when you ingest them and how much you ingest, etc. Strychnine can be medicine. Don't think in terms of black and white and label alkaloids as "good" or "bad," they're just tools. A hammer can be used to build a house, or bash someone's head in. The hammer is neither good nor bad. It's all a question of the skill and intent of the one using the tool. Same with molecules.

Many combinations of B-carbs and tryptamines exist throughout the world, and aya is not the only one to have been used throughout history. Such molecules are commonplace everywhere, methinks there may be a reason for that, given what excellent tools they can be in the hands of a skilled worker with the proper intent.

Love & miss you all... must go now, lest the addiction of nexus-ing take hold of me again and de-synchronize my vibratory state from where it currently needs to be given my role as provider for family right now. I look forward to someday being able to return and share even more profound information gathered throughout the years that I would love to report at first possible opportunity to those who would hear it. Meanwhile, thank you to all who continue to contribute to the ever-growing body of knowledge and understanding being built here... would that I could be a part of it more than circumstances currently allow...
The Ultimate Secret of the Universe is that there is no Ultimate Secret of the Universe... there's just a bunch of stuff that happens.
 
downwardsfromzero
#30 Posted : 12/18/2013 8:11:30 PM

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Thank you so much for your post, SyZyGyPSy. I've found it incredibly inspiring!




โ€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
โ€• Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
mew
#31 Posted : 12/20/2013 8:01:49 PM

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mew has used the term harmaloids many times without knowing where it came from ;3
 
SnozzleBerry
#32 Posted : 12/20/2013 8:29:26 PM

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Nice post SyZyGyPSy, thanks for that

SyZyGyPSy wrote:
Am surprised to hear this fraction tested and came up as harmine/harmaline... am questioning ability of testing method used to distinguish...

The alkaloids that I sent in for testing (via GC-MS by the folks who have done much of our testing) were not simple precipitates from the Manske, which ime as well are darker than the harmala fb precipitate, but had been re a/b'd a number of times. They dried into funky chunks, which I crushed up, whereupon it resembled traditional harmala fb. I then sent that in for testing. I would like to get more analysis done on this, as if it is generally repeatable, extractions could have a higher yield than generally believed.

I've actually done some caapi extractions which have used already brewed caapi and the fb precipitate has been similar in consistency. I'm not entirely sure what could be causing it, just that it happens.
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endlessness
#33 Posted : 12/20/2013 9:28:32 PM

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Hey syzy!

Nice of you to show up again .. And good post! Smile

Regarding the tests, appart from snozz`s sample I also tested my own and it was similar results. I first recipitated the harmala hcl with a manske salt precipitation, filtered to retrieve them, then base the remaning liquid, retrieve the precipitates. I tested with TLC, GC-MS, and results have been that there`s still significant amount of harmalas there, plus a smaller amount of other alkaloids which might include vasicine/vasicinone. You can test this also simply by looking at UV fluorescence. Try it out, redissolve these bases in a solution and see the UV fluorescence. Vasicine/vasicinone do not shine under UV like harmalas do.

So to recap: Manske precipitates reasonably `pure` harmalas without any significant quantity of other alkaloids. Adding a base to the `spent` solution post-manske will still yield a significant amount of harmalas with smaller (but possibly significant) amounts of other alkaloids.


 
Auxin
#34 Posted : 12/20/2013 10:25:31 PM

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That begs the question, what is still in solution in a manske preciped and subsequently base preciped solution?
Some of these alks are moderately soluble in water.
Isopropanol (at room temp, at least) is mostly insoluble in saturated salt solution, tho the alcohol layer will pick up some salt. I dont remember if hot isopropanol is equally insoluble in hot saturated salt solution but any freebased alkaloids of either class should be soluble in hot isopropanol.
Or the mansked and based, filtered solution could just be evaporated to dryness and digested with hot alcohol to pick up the remaining alks for testing/use.

These critters are easy to differentiate by TLC or paper chromatography, given the right eluent. Does the nexus have a household-materals paper chrom tek hidden somewhere?
 
endlessness
#35 Posted : 12/20/2013 10:45:36 PM

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Good question!

I`d bet that is where most of the vasicine/vasicinone are, considering they are so polar.
 
Spiralout
#36 Posted : 4/29/2018 8:50:43 PM

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I'm dragging this back from the grave yard as I'm not sure there's a more relevant thread to continue in and I don't want to start a new one...

Has anyone done anymore research on isolating vasicine or any of the other alkaloids? It sounds like, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that it is difficult to test a sample for vascine and related compounds using gas chromatography?

I figured the thing to do would be what endlessness said; do a manske, filter the harmalas, and then take the remaining liquid and base, collect the precipitates and then either clean them up more or just leave them as is. But apparently that might not actually work? I'm sorry if I just didn't understand what I've read correctly but is the problem that we just can't tell whether the compounds are there or not?

Anyways , the main reason I want to isolate the vasicine and related compounds is to try and help with my lungs issues.. Apparently it might be a potent bronchiodilator and/or expectorant ..

If anyone has any more information it would be greatly appreciated Very happy

Ok, hope everyone is well.

P.S. : Does anyone have much, or any, experience with Adhatoda vasica?
 
downwardsfromzero
#37 Posted : 4/30/2018 9:59:40 PM

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All I can really add here is that Shulgin mentioned that at least one of the peganoids (don't know what else to call them!) is (constitutionally) isomeric with one of the harmaloids and this can mess up characterisation. Consider this apocryphal for the moment, though.

This was my 3000th post. Nice that it references Shulgin, the only hero I ever had.




โ€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
โ€• Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
organicozy
#38 Posted : 8/16/2020 12:11:28 AM
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organicozy
#39 Posted : 8/16/2020 12:13:03 AM
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organicozy wrote:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4388757/Smile

brand new... still learning...
 
organicozy
#40 Posted : 8/16/2020 12:18:11 AM
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih...pmc/articles/PMC4388757/
no emoji... now the link might work... link shows research with Alzheimers using activities of Vasicine alkaloid
 
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