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MHRB tea precipitation discussion and research Options
 
Connor137
#1 Posted : 6/6/2020 9:06:24 PM

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Hi all,

I have been reading some old post’s recently, regarding the precipitation of DMT crystals in an aqueous solution, without the need for non-polar solvents. This suits both my desire to reduce my reliance on environmental pollutants, and serves as an interesting study into the mechanics of alkaloid extraction techniques. I am not looking for the highest yielding method, nor the fastest technique to produce freebase DMT; instead, I seek to understand and refine a simple method for the extraction of crystals from a basic MHRB tea solution, using only water, a base and some patience, with the hope that this may eventually be adapted for Phalaris grass tea.

The following posts indicated to me that DMT will precipitate in a basic MHRB tea, as shown in the first link, and cleaner solutions, as discussed in the second. However, the results do no seem to be easily replicable or consistent, as shown in the third link where an attempt to replicate the Water Only Tek failed: Water Only Tek + Separating DMT Without Any Solvent + The water tek, What are the end results?.

I am aware that DMT can be extracted with various solvents with greater speed, and while some may see this project as a waste of time, I believe there is a simpler alternative extraction method awaiting our discovery. One that will harmonise with the environment that we occupy, and seeks to encourage self-restraint and patience.

To document my progress on this endeavour I have begun this thread, and shall continue to update here with musings and progress reports as the days go by.

My initial attempt / test run:

50g of powdered MHRB was boiled in 700ml of de-ionised water, simmered for 1 hour and filtered into a glass jar using a non-bleached coffee filter.

The jar was placed in a fridge for 1 night to allow the sediment to settle. The solution was filtered into another jar, this time through a funnel stuffed with cotton wool.

I proceeded to reduce this filtered MHRB tea to 150ml, to concentrate the solution sufficiently to facilitate DMT crystallisation, but ended up with 135ml after getting distracted by my cats, which is easily done.

The final solution has now been sitting on the side for a week, while I await buffer solutions and a glass thermometer to calibrate my PH meter. I’d like to be sure of the PH readings before I continue. (Provisional PH readings at this point were 4.15 and 4.34, variations here may be due to significant temperature changes in my area across the days measured. This should be low enough to ensure the DMT is protonated).

I now have some precipitation occurring that is reminiscent of the failed attempt made by Ice House in the above posted link (The water tek, What are the end results?). I will post the pictures below. It seems key to clarify what’s happening here before I continue.

This solution will be based with NaOH initially to 10.68, pending further research and investigation into the impact of NaOH on the solutions density. As discussed on other posts, this could make the solution more dense than the DMT, facilitating the crystals formation at the top for ease of collection.


So, finally, thank you for taking the time to read this, and I would ask if anyone is willing to contribute to this exploration of tea precipitation, or share concerns and constructive criticisms, could they do so respectfully, with a higher nature Smile
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Connor137
#2 Posted : 6/6/2020 9:08:32 PM

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See pictures below, showing the concentrated MHRB tea, after 1 boil, 2 filtrations, 1 reduction and approximately 7 days standing at room temperature (varying from 9-20 degrees Celsius). If anyone could help me shed some light on what might be precipitating from this MHRB tea, after the above steps, that would be great. This solution has not yet been exposed to NaOH.
Connor137 attached the following image(s):
MHRB tea precipitation pre-base 1.jpg (3,128kb) downloaded 171 time(s).
MHRB tea precipitation pre-base 2.jpg (2,587kb) downloaded 169 time(s).
MHRB tea precipitation pre-base 3.jpg (3,940kb) downloaded 168 time(s).
Reality is a simulation, what lies beyond is too complex to fully comprehend.
 
endlessness
#3 Posted : 6/6/2020 10:18:40 PM

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Its hard to determine anything by the pictures but judging the description of simply boiling and filtering, I'd imagine this typical "sludge" that is formed with, for example, ayahuasca brews, def contains alkaloids but isn't pure alkaloids and most still remain on the water. It might be some mixed tannate salts that have lower solubilities when concentrated and cooled? Who knows.

You can separate it and proceed to clean up and then test somehow to see what you can get out of it.

Another thing you can try is doing an eggwhite cleaning tek during the first boil, see how it compares. Also different pH ranges.

In the end you should def have some sort of confirmatory method, whether it is some reagents, TLC, melting point test or something similar, it will def add weight to your results.

Keep us posted!
 
downwardsfromzero
#4 Posted : 6/6/2020 10:25:16 PM

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Those crystals are highly likely to be precipitated tannins. However, don't just toss them away as tannins are acidic and therefore there's a possibility some DMT might be bound to them.

First, see what floats up from the solution after adding base. Then boil up the shiny crystals from your photos with a bit of vinegar or HCl, chill in the fridge again - tannins should precipitate again. Separate the acidified solution from any solids, boil off water according to what you think should be sufficient and add base to see what floats up.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

β€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
ShamensStamen
#5 Posted : 6/6/2020 10:25:30 PM
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I used to do this with Mimosa and Acacia, basically just brew a tea or do a cold water extraction, and evaporate the water/liquid down to a residue. The residue can be encapsulated. As far as if the DMT precipitates in salt form, idk, but the residue works very well and is certainly better than encapsulating actual root powder lol.

I wonder if there'd be a way to create a full spectrum extract salt in stable powder form that can be encapsulated.
 
Connor137
#6 Posted : 6/7/2020 2:09:24 PM

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endlessness wrote:
Its hard to determine anything by the pictures but judging the description of simply boiling and filtering, I'd imagine this typical "sludge" that is formed with, for example, ayahuasca brews, def contains alkaloids but isn't pure alkaloids and most still remain on the water. It might be some mixed tannate salts that have lower solubilities when concentrated and cooled? Who knows.

You can separate it and proceed to clean up and then test somehow to see what you can get out of it.

Another thing you can try is doing an eggwhite cleaning tek during the first boil, see how it compares. Also different pH ranges.

In the end you should def have some sort of confirmatory method, whether it is some reagents, TLC, melting point test or something similar, it will def add weight to your results.

Keep us posted!


Thanks for your input Endlessness, its intriguing to think of the many possibilities here, but I agree that this may well be further sediment precipitation combined with tannate salts. I will decant this solution into a new glass and experiment further with what gets left behind.

I’ll do my best to keep everything documented here, so that if / when I get some results, I can use some of the above mentioned methods to provide further confirmation.

I have looked up the egg white cleaning method, and while I cannot use this material, due to following a strict nutritionally intelligent compassionately aware (NICA) lifestyle, it has got me thinking along the lines of removing tannins with other methods, possibly the freeze and thaw method that I have seen mentioned in a mimosa ayahuasca thread. Thanks for the inspiration. Smile


downwardsfromzero wrote:
Those crystals are highly likely to be precipitated tannins. However, don't just toss them away as tannins are acidic and therefore there's a possibility some DMT might be bound to them.

First, see what floats up from the solution after adding base. Then boil up the shiny crystals from your photos with a bit of vinegar or HCl, chill in the fridge again - tannins should precipitate again. Separate the acidified solution from any solids, boil off water according to what you think should be sufficient and add base to see what floats up.


Downwardsfromzero, thanks for your comment. I was considering pouring off the reduced solution and working with this precipitate separately. I appreciate your suggestions and this gives me a clear idea of how to work with it further. It would be interesting to see if any DMT is indeed caught up in this pre-base precipitation, and would make one consider the possibility of clathrate compounds preventing a successful extraction in the case of Ice House (linked above). I know little of the science behind this, but it seems logical that something of this nature could be underlying the mixed results.

With so many variables it could be quite the long wait before anything of that nature is discovered. Despite this, I think its definitely a worthwhile project, and it gives me plenty of time to read up on the relevant principles.
Reality is a simulation, what lies beyond is too complex to fully comprehend.
 
Connor137
#7 Posted : 6/7/2020 2:14:16 PM

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ShamensStamen wrote:
I used to do this with Mimosa and Acacia, basically just brew a tea or do a cold water extraction, and evaporate the water/liquid down to a residue. The residue can be encapsulated. As far as if the DMT precipitates in salt form, idk, but the residue works very well and is certainly better than encapsulating actual root powder lol.

I wonder if there'd be a way to create a full spectrum extract salt in stable powder form that can be encapsulated.


Thanks for your comment ShamensStamen, and for sharing for experiences with teas and cold water extractions. Your methods for taking DMT, in what I presume is an oral manner, is something I might consider in the future!

For now I’m pretty determined to replicate the results of some old threads, and refine a method to understand how crystals can be reliably precipitated in a basic aqueous solution.
Reality is a simulation, what lies beyond is too complex to fully comprehend.
 
Connor137
#8 Posted : 6/9/2020 7:39:26 PM

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Update on test run:

The reduced solution was measured at 3.83 PH after calibration. The liquid was separated from the precipitation, created by 12 days standing at room temperature. Picture shown below. After some further reading I have decided to freeze the solution and thaw, to encourage further precipitation of sediment, tannins or undesirables.

The crystals-precipitation in the photo below, assumed to be tannic of nature, possibly containing some DMT, were redissolved in filtered rainwater, before being heated on the stove with previously saved sediment to maximise alkaloid extraction. The PH at this stage read 5.2, and was lowered to 2.8 with Fumaric acid. This will now sit overnight in the fridge to encourage separation of bark and sludge. The resulting liquid will be decanted and, pending further consideration, added back to the original brew.

I am considering keeping these two liquids separate due to the addition of Fumaric acid, as it will be interesting to see how the bark fairs without any.

It is important to note at this stage that I am working with the first boil of 50g MHRB. The filtered bark was frozen and will be re-processed for a second boil in the same manner as described in above posts.
Connor137 attached the following image(s):
MHRB salt precipitation 1.jpg (1,686kb) downloaded 123 time(s).
Reality is a simulation, what lies beyond is too complex to fully comprehend.
 
downwardsfromzero
#9 Posted : 6/10/2020 11:18:02 AM

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Those pale crystals look like some sort of calcium salt of an organic acid, maybe calcium fumarate considering that's the acid you added.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

β€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Connor137
#10 Posted : 6/10/2020 11:30:57 AM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
Those pale crystals look like some sort of calcium salt of an organic acid, maybe calcium fumarate considering that's the acid you added.


This picture was the precipitation found after the reduced bark brew sat for 12 days, with no additional acids. The Fumaric acid has been added to what was found in this glass, as well as some previous sludge I had saved. I boiled this up and it is now sat in the fridge again. Smile Perhaps this could be Calicum Tannate/Oxalate?

I am pondering if the use of Fumaric acid may be better for allowing the tannins etc to precipitate without taking the DMT with it.
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Jagube
#11 Posted : 6/10/2020 12:39:37 PM

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Thanks for starting this thread. I'm also very interested, although I put more emphasis on achieving high yields, as in my world, pulling significantly less than 100% actives is wastefulness. After all, nearly lossless MHRB tea is drinkable as it is, if not exactly nice in taste and effects (dark vibes and brain zaps...). Also I'm not so much interested in a smokable product, but a drinkable one.

I've found that the dark vibes and brain zaps are removed with A/B with limonene / vegetable oil pulls, while the medicinal, full-spectrum quality is retained. But if the pulls can be done away with, that would be revolutionary.
 
downwardsfromzero
#12 Posted : 6/10/2020 9:10:50 PM

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Connor137 wrote:
downwardsfromzero wrote:
Those pale crystals look like some sort of calcium salt of an organic acid, maybe calcium fumarate considering that's the acid you added.


This picture was the precipitation found after the reduced bark brew sat for 12 days, with no additional acids. The Fumaric acid has been added to what was found in this glass, as well as some previous sludge I had saved. I boiled this up and it is now sat in the fridge again. Smile Perhaps this could be Calicum Tannate/Oxalate?

I am pondering if the use of Fumaric acid may be better for allowing the tannins etc to precipitate without taking the DMT with it.

Ah, OK. I actually typed calcium oxalate first, then changed it. Add concentrated sulphuric acid and see if the crystals give off any carbon monoxide Big grin (Or maybe, don't unless you really know what you're doing. Safety first.)

A number of metal salts are quite effective at precipitating tannins. Magnesium sulfate might even work.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

β€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Connor137
#13 Posted : 6/12/2020 7:57:49 AM

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Jagube wrote:
Thanks for starting this thread. I'm also very interested, although I put more emphasis on achieving high yields, as in my world, pulling significantly less than 100% actives is wastefulness. After all, nearly lossless MHRB tea is drinkable as it is, if not exactly nice in taste and effects (dark vibes and brain zaps...). Also I'm not so much interested in a smokable product, but a drinkable one.

I've found that the dark vibes and brain zaps are removed with A/B with limonene / vegetable oil pulls, while the medicinal, full-spectrum quality is retained. But if the pulls can be done away with, that would be revolutionary.


Your welcome Jagube. I understand the desire to reduce waste and maximise the yield, it is definitely desirable to be working efficiently. For me the yield is secondary to the use of a technique that supports my move away from environmental pollutants.

I think the majority of this experiment will lend well to your preference of oral ingestion. I have noticed several of your posts over the years, regarding refining a MHRB brew, and I have taken inspiration from these Smile
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Connor137
#14 Posted : 6/14/2020 8:19:38 PM

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Update on test run:

The original reduced brew has now endured 4 freeze and thaw cycles, which resulted in a thick black - brown precipitation goo at the bottom of the jar. The brew was decanted from the precipitation and was notably clearer. It was difficult to decant the brew and inevitably a small amount of sediment was transferred, so a glass pipette of adequate size will be required to decant without disturbing the bottom layer.

The second liquid, re-boiled with Fumaric acid, will remain separate to the originally test run experiment, as I am currently reviewing which acid I will use in its place for the re-processing of bark and precipitations.

After much consideration I have decided to halt proceedings until I can source a hot plate stirrer and suitable glassware. For now I am happy with the progress of the original liquid and will continue to study and mull things over. Smile
Connor137 attached the following image(s):
MHRB freeze and thaw.jpg (1,224kb) downloaded 70 time(s).
MHRB freeze and thaw precipitation.jpg (2,349kb) downloaded 68 time(s).
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Connor137
#15 Posted : 7/30/2020 3:04:15 PM

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Update on test run:

After a required break, tending to life’s occurrences, I have resumed my experiment, aided by the purchase of suitable glassware and a magnetic stirrer hot plate.

The originally reduced liquid has sat on my side since my last posting, along side the offshoot experiment that utilised Fumaric acid. The Fumaric acid offshoot developed two worrying mould-like structures, that floated both beneath and on top of the surface. I find moulds of any kind extremely unpleasant, and needless to say this batch was discarded immediately, with extra care taken to avoid the inhalation of spores. Sad

Back to the originally reduced brew, which has been sat in a Pyrex jug, with a paper filter on top to prevent dust settling on the liquid. This has reduced in volume to approximately 45ml due to evaporation, and despite my attempts to prevent the ingress of dust, a cat hair has found its way inside, as they do all places.

Interestingly, this liquid has begun to precipitate tiny crystals, which I believe could be DMT-Tannate or DMT-Oxylate, or similar salts. As per the picture below, they float on the surface, and have also collected at the bottom of the jug. This leads me to believe they may be different forms of precipitation, hence the display of different densities.

I will keep this liquid as it is for now, while continuing to re-process the original 50g bark with the above posted method (boil - chill - decant/filter - freeze - defrost - decant/filter - Freeze etc) I find this method has lead to a clear brew, which may have aided the crystallisation of salts as shown below, and am hopeful to yield positive results when it comes to basing the refined liquid.

If anyone has any thoughts on what this precipitation may be, or have experienced anything similar, I would be very grateful to know.
Connor137 attached the following image(s):
MHRB bottom precipitation 1.png (12,565kb) downloaded 54 time(s).
MHRB surface precipitation.png (9,561kb) downloaded 54 time(s).
MHRB surface precipitation 2.png (10,003kb) downloaded 54 time(s).
Reality is a simulation, what lies beyond is too complex to fully comprehend.
 
downwardsfromzero
#16 Posted : 8/2/2020 12:38:33 AM

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Quote:
tiny crystals
Probably a calcium salt.
Quote:
different densities
Small crystals just get stuck to the surface tension. They aren't heavy enough to break away and sink.

Don't let this put you off, collect the crystals and investigate them anyway. I would love to be wrong here!
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

β€œThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
ShamensStamen
#17 Posted : 8/2/2020 1:41:46 AM
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Man i miss the look and satisfaction of frozen/thawed Mimosa and Acacia brews. If only we could find a good way to separate the clean looking tea from any and all tannin/sediment content, that would be great lol.
 
Connor137
#18 Posted : 8/5/2020 11:06:34 AM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
Quote:
tiny crystals
Probably a calcium salt.
Quote:
different densities
Small crystals just get stuck to the surface tension. They aren't heavy enough to break away and sink.

Don't let this put you off, collect the crystals and investigate them anyway. I would love to be wrong here!


Thanks for the response Smile Yes, ill have to collect them soon and perform a test to determine if they are DMT salts. As they are so small it will be quite the task to collect them cleanly. I’ll have a mull over the best way to do this.

ShamensStamen wrote:
Quote:
Man i miss the look and satisfaction of frozen/thawed Mimosa and Acacia brews. If only we could find a good way to separate the clean looking tea from any and all tannin/sediment content, that would be great lol.


Yes, this is the aim here Smile , to process the brew to the point that it would resemble either a very weak cup of tea, or a clear liquid ideally. I am finding the current process I have employed as producing a nice clear, but still notably coloured tea, and hope to refine this process further. I am of the mind that another method will have to be employed once I reach the limits of freezing and thawing.

Once I reach this stage, the idea will be to base the liquid, with attention paid to its density to allow crystal formation at the surface for ease of collection.

Reality is a simulation, what lies beyond is too complex to fully comprehend.
 
 
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