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"Capturing" the plant.. a dialogue on full spectrum extracts Options
 
acacian
#1 Posted : 6/2/2020 11:45:45 AM

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Hi all,

I wasn't entirely sure on where to post this or whether I should really post it at all - but its something that I have done a lot of thinking about over the years on my journey with acacias and thought perhaps is a perspective worth sharing .. in fact it is a perspective already shared by some, but I wanted to create a thread where we might explore these ideas a little deeper.

In the current age where we can buy processed DMT containing plants as online "products", something I see is that people are missing what I would consider an important aspect of the tryptamine journey - which is connection to the lifeforms that synthesise these profound "messenger molecules" .. and rather than appreciating and honouring the fascinating host of compounds that many of these plants offer, a trend seems to have emerged among many that "pure = better" and anything that is not DMT ought to be removed from the extract as an "impurity" ..of course sometimes pure may be the best route.. but I think this is in someways an unfortunate strain of thought in that deeper insights may be missed..

In Australia I have noticed this attitude a lot in people who sell DMT and it unfortunately trickles down to the consumer... a product that can simply be bought with money - with little to no bearing on its origins in the plant kingdom... and I daresay.. a missing link in the journey that these molecules embark us on... the journey of connection or "oneness" with nature.

I'm not sure what else to say at this point - and I understand not everybody has the luxery of being spending time with these plants in their natural environment and so online purchase is the only other option aside from growing the plants... And I also don't mean to have a dig at anyone who simply prefers to use DMT in its pure form.. thats totally up to the individual's preference. But I would regardless like to invite anyone interested to join in dialogue in how we can best capture and honour the plants in our extracts? Eg, What solvents do you guys like to use to achieve this.. are there other steps you like to take in order to preserve potentially interesting compounds the plants contain? Are some of these compounds potentially toxic and how might you go about removing them?

I would be fascinated to hear the various strains of thought people have on full spectrum alkaloid extracts and the various approaches to them. I think if we only focus on DMT.. we may sadly miss the unique teachings that various plants offer us.
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Acacia Diphylla.png (1,086kb) downloaded 345 time(s).
Acacia Ingramii.png (1,174kb) downloaded 343 time(s).
Acacia Lanigera.png (607kb) downloaded 341 time(s).
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Grey Fox
#2 Posted : 6/2/2020 3:16:38 PM

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This is an interesting topic. There are many people here on the Nexus with a lot of knowledge of chemistry. The Nexus is known for being where many of the teks originiate and/or get further improved. I dont read all of the posts on the Nexus regarding DMT. But I check in regularly and read everything that gets posted here about cactus. And there is a similar perspective that seems fairly common here and elsewhere that the purest form of extracted mescaline is superior to full spectrum extracts or to tea, which is the traditional method of consumption. And it seems that many attempts at mescaline extraction begin with powdered cactus sold online by vendors. It is no longer necessay to grow or obtain living Trichocereus cacti.

Now I understand that people want to minimize unpleasant side effects from other plant alkaloids and impurities. And I also understand that people want to be able to dose with precision.

But something is being lost here. Each cactus clone is a unique life form. When you grow various different species and clones of Trichocereus you see that they have different character. Some are heavily spined and some have almost no spines. Some are green and some are blue. Some are skinny and some are fat. Some grow slower and some grow faster. Etc, etc, etc. There are many variations. And when you trip on the different cacti you realize that each cactus also has its own feel in terms of the trip. The differences in the trip between the various species of active Trichocereus can be striking.

What shocked me when I first became active on the Nexus was that I heard people saying that all Trichocereus cacti have the same effect, there are no active chemicals in them besides mescaline, all perceived differences between cacti are based in differences in mescaline content only, and anything else is probably just placebo. People are racing to find the most efficient tek to get straight to pure mescaline from cactus powder of unknown origin. This approach to me is like wanting to drink cheap moonshine instead of a bottle of fine wine from a quality vineyard that preserves the nuance of the grape varietal and the terroir. There is more to these cacti than just the mescaline content. And this fact has been well known for a long time by people who grow and sample various types of Trichocereus.

Additionally, in my experience, the more that cactus material is heated and processed, the more that the nuance of the individual cactus' unique character becomes lost in the experience. I used to just eat the raw cactus. I would just pull out the spines, peel off the clear skin, and chow down on fresh cut chunks of cactus. Those were the most vivid trips. A small amount of cactus could get me really high. It just felt extra bright and intense. The closest thing I can compare it to are fresh picked cubes. Just extra vivid and visual and intense for the dose. You could really feel the character of the cactus.

But after tripping that way for about a dozen times I started to see the downsides to that approach: it was too limiting in terms of how much cactus could be consumed and it was uncomfortable to stuff a large amount of cactus plant material into my gut. And so I swtched to tea. And it works great. But I definitely need to use more plant material with the tea to get to the same level as would take with eating the cactus. I also found that some of the extra vividness and character of the experience was diminished, even if I upped the amount of plant material.

So I have been very focussed the last few years on figuring out how to brew the tea in a way that loses as little of that fresh character as possible. And I think that heat has a lot to do with it. If I am very careful not to let the tea come to a hard boil during the brewing process then most of the character of the fresh cactus experience is preserved. But a hard boil, especially for an extended time and especially near the end of the brew when the water level is low, is what really seems to diminish the quality of the tea. Yes it still has mescaline and it will still get you high. But something is lost for sure.

IT WAS ALL A DREAM
 
acacian
#3 Posted : 6/2/2020 5:51:39 PM

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Hey Grey Fox, thanks for chiming in..

Your points on dose precision and minimising unpleasant side effects are definitely worth raising.. certainly not all plants lend themselves to full spectrum extracts.. species like Phalaris might be a good example of this.. the full spectrum extracts sound the most fascinating to me - but until more is known about some of the other compounds the grasses contain, I can understand people's hesitance towards unpurified extracts. The same can be said of Acacias.. people need to excersize a lot of caution when ingesting undocumented extracts.. but yes.. I agree .. something is definitely lost in this obsession with the singular compounds or as I have been lately referring to it .. I like to call this trend "crystal culture"..

Regarding the minimisation of heat to preserve other alkaloids.. this is my line of thinking as well. My approach if I am aiming to really capture the tree's character is to be as gentle as possible in both heat and acidity. I like to soak the dried material in a solution of mostly ethanol, a little water and just a hint of acid (usually a dash of vinegar) for a week or two.. maybe even adding the acid a little later on in the soak. I then either let the ethanol evaporate to a more workable quantity or if I am pressed for time very gently reducing with heat.

After this I will simmer the material, reduce the liquid and then combine with the cold extraction ethanol solution. I gradually add enough base until I see precipitation and then pull at the various ph's from 9 upwards .. I primarily use toluene, although if I could get DCM I would definitely use that instead.. Benzymes recent thread on acetone suggests that as a fairly good candidate as well (although harmalas dont seem very soluble in it at all)..

Regarding cacti, I have fairly limited experience.. only 5 or so.. but my favourites were by far drinking powdered cactus in water compared to extracts.

I hope that more people will consider the idea of these plant extracts as exactly that.. plant extracts.. when somebody extracts from an acacia and just calls it DMT.. it doesn't give the life form the honour it deserves. As Dennis Mckenna often says.. (paraphrasing here) the plants are master chemists .. they display clear signs of intelligence in the way that they communicate with their surrounding ecosystems through chemistry.. a healthy thing to remember when attempting to isolate their compounds. Maybe specific alkaloid profiles are essential to convey differing messages.. dmt being a particularly good vehicle to carry the teachings of these other compounds.. When I started working with acacias in this way.. I noticed myself not calling the extracts DMT anymore.. they became acacia extracts.. calling them this to me honours the trees more than simply calling it a single compound.

Below one of my favourite allies.. Acacia Floribunda...a gentle yet powerful teacher. The full spectrum extracts pleasantly heavy and slow.. a more "still" feeling experience of grace.. Naptha extracts of this plant are far less interesting and don't do the plant justice. I bet the same can be said of many more species..
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Triglav
#4 Posted : 6/3/2020 3:40:50 PM

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Thank you for starting this thread acacian. I can relate very much to the message you're trying to convey.

I do have some experience with working with plants and fungi, but would like to go even deeper with that.

I feel I have developed a noticeable relationship with the wild growing Psilocybe semilanceata mushrooms. I like how you have to check on the weather to catch the right conditions, you have to find the good habitat for the species and then you have to go to the place which most times is not very very close and then you have to make some hiking and only then can you start looking for them. I felt more than once they have called me from the local mountains here and led me to the right places. I love the effects they produce - they're very unique since they contain good amounts of baeocystin alkaloid.

I can very much relate to this in therms of cacti work. I have tried san pedro tea in small and big doses and 3 different strains - most interesting of those is most likely the T. bridgessi short penis form. I've also extracted mescaline hcl two times and experienced it a few times in different doses. There is no doubt left that the full spectrum water extracts are much much richer and much more visual even in relatively small doses.

What I like about making your own cacti extracts or even mescaline hcl is that first you have to grow them and then there is quite some preparation to be done with de-skinning and de-spinning. After that If you want to make a quality tea it demands some dedication. With growing and preparing the plant I definitely feel how I develop a relationship with it and I get a sense of that it is teaching me much even before I ingest it in any way.

I can also say for Peganum harmala that there is a vast difference in therms of effects I get from full spectrum water extract compared to extracted harmala either with manske step or without it. There is no doubt the water extract is much richer and for me more sedating. Also there are many more health benefits with tea. In retrospective I see how I developed a relationship with the seeds and how we got the know each other and adapted to one another. This year I am trying for the first time to grow the plant which will further develop our relationship.

It does feel very good to a have a relationship with a plant or fungi. Smile

EDIT:
I've been searching for a relatively unknown tropane alkaloids containing plant called Scopolia carniolica (henbane bell) for 2 years or so without any success. The feeling I had in this years spring when the plant most unexpectedly found me is something else.

My perception of fungi and plants changed a lot in the last few years. Now I see them as fully conscious and very advanced beings. Smile
 
null24
#5 Posted : 6/3/2020 8:24:04 PM

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It's kinda funny, reading the thread title, the word 'capture' struck me and i thought to make some sort of esoteric point about an alchemical apprehension and understanding and the idea of capturing something, but nevermind, i think i understand what you're saying.

Unfortunately where i live it is impossible for me to have the sort of relationship with the plant that you do, i wish that was were there case but alas acacia and mimosa don't tolerate our long soggy dark season. Mushrooms a however, love it, and i have developed a real relationship with them. I can get all geeky about it, but they've been very good to me and taught me so much about the environment i live in, helping to center and balance me within it.

I've never really shared the purity crystal mindset, in fact out of the dozen or so times I've extracted from ACRB, it was always my goal to pull as much of a full spectrum extract as i could, and the inclusion of some fat and oil which to many is a sign of low quality was my goal. Doesn't matter to me, I'm not trying to sell it, ha ha. Because of the hit-or-miss nature of the overall yeilds I'd experienced with ACRB, i recently broke down and converted to the church of convenience and tried a STB on some MHRB, and well, yes it's easy as can be to produce loads of fluffy white powder.

In fact i think i need a little bit of a challenge with it and have to try to grow some big-ass pretty crystals now. Razz

So, i don't know what my point is, but i think i grok what your saying. I think there are lots of ways we can learn by developing our relationship with the plants we use, and some folks are more into that than others.

Love the pics, btw. Pretty.
Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
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acacian
#6 Posted : 6/6/2020 11:05:12 AM

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Hey Triglav and Null24.. thanks for the thoughtful responses..

Regarding psilocybes, I am glad to hear this has been your experience too. I also find picking psilocybe mushrooms offers a rewarding dimension to the experience.. especially if munching a few while picking. My first trips occurred in this fashion and I am grateful that I experienced it this way rather than just receiving it as a "product" from someone else.

I am glad other plants/fungi have been brought up as this is not just an issue with dmt but a broader issue with plant extracts. I have also found cactus extracts far less inspiring than the tea but my limited experience in both perhaps doesn't qualify me to comment...

Convenience and availability are of course valid issues.. you are right null24 that not everyone has the luxery of observing these plant's grace in the wild (although fungi definitely offer this experience) and some dont have other means of aquiring the compound which brings us all together here.. but I would call on those ordering rootbark or cactus powder or whatever it be to reflect a little on where their extracts are coming from and perhaps toy with the idea of honouring whatever other alkaloids the plant offers them....or better grow the plants to develop a hands on relationship.

And hey.. nothing wrong with big ass pretty crystals either.. who couldn't love them.
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bezevo
#7 Posted : 6/7/2020 6:28:42 AM

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what would be a cpl acacia plants i could get seeds for that you could get reasonable yield from leafs and branches , so you wouldn't have to try and harvest root bark .. could cpl of you chime in with contenders ?
 
acacian
#8 Posted : 6/7/2020 8:42:01 AM

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bezevo wrote:
what would be a cpl acacia plants i could get seeds for that you could get reasonable yield from leafs and branches , so you wouldn't have to try and harvest root bark .. could cpl of you chime in with contenders ?


Hi bezevo Smile

Acacia Acuminata has high yielding phyllodes (more than the bark of most acacias) at around 1% DMT and close to 2% in twig/branch so it is probably the most desirable acacia to grow in this respect. The extracts of the narrow phyllode variety are very clean and powerful.

Acacia Floribunda has healthy levels of dmt in the phyllodes at around 0.4% and the extracts are a little slower, gentler and sedating in my experience.. this is most likely due to additional alkaloids. I find the extracts of this species particularly enjoyable and its gorgeous in bloom

Acacia Maidenii, Obtusifolia, Phlebophylla, Concurrens, Leiocalyx, Colei, Longissima, mucronata (some strains), Neurophylla are all good candidates for active phyllodes..

I mean any tree that people are extracting alkaloids from the rootbark more than likely has healthy enough levels in the phyllodes too. I am frustrated that there isn't more information on Confusa's phyllode activity .. I have no doubt that DMT is present in other parts of the tree but this would need to be confirmed .. I haven't been on here in a while so maybe I have missed some important info that could be brought to light? I'm even willing to bet mimosa hostilis has activity in the phyllodes..
 
dithyramb
#9 Posted : 6/8/2020 12:31:53 PM

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Hey acacian! Thank you for bringing this important topic for discussion. In fact, "capturing the spirit of a plant" has been something I spend a lot of time contemplating and working on. I too am a wholist, and I feel right only when approaching the medicines as plants, and not as molecules.
 
Tony6Strings
#10 Posted : 6/8/2020 10:19:48 PM

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OK guys, I've captured some plant. Acacia Confusa root bark from Hawaii. Huge pieces. Any suggestions on full spectrum extractions?
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olympus mon wrote:
You need to hit it with intention to get where you want to be!

"We have arrived at truth, and now we find truth is a mystery- a play of joy, creation, and energy. This is source. This is the mystic touchstone that heals and renews. This is the beginning again. This is entheogenic." -Nicholas Sand
 
null24
#11 Posted : 6/8/2020 11:53:34 PM

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Tony6Strings wrote:
OK guys, I've captured some plant. Acacia Confusa root bark from Hawaii. Huge pieces. Any suggestions on full spectrum extractions?

Your gonna have fun powdering it, i can tell you that!
Search Earthwalker's tek, it's a great starting off point, it's the only one i could find that specifically talks about ACRB.

Those look like nice pieces. ACRB is awesome. Look forward to your seeing your results.
Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
*γνῶθι σεαυτόν*
decrimART
 
acacian
#12 Posted : 6/9/2020 6:25:43 PM

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Tony6Strings .. If it were me extracting from ACRB.. I would do roughly as follows..(feel free to make adjustments based on what feels right)

1. Cold soak with an ethanol, water and vinegar (just a dash) solution for a few days before simmering/boiling the material a couple times..

2. Strain liquids with a coffee filter, oil filter or cotton bud. Reduce the boils on a gentle heat and if you have the time maybe reduce the ethanol separately without heat in order to preserve any heat sensitive alkaloids.. hair drier or fan until it is a small amount of liquid that you can just add to your reduced boils. I find 4-500mls a good volume to work with. Depending on how much liquid you had to start you may want to adjust this so that you are not reducing the liquid for sjuper long amounts of time (this can sometimes lower yields with acacias depending on their chemical makeup)

3. Strain material again .. this time more meticulously. Allow solution to cool and then strain again.. you might find unwanted gunk precipitates out when it cools down.

4. Defat with solvent. Remove solvent and discard.

5.Bring solution to ph 8/9 (NaOH is probably easiest to work with) and let solution sit for a few a little while to react. Add 200ml of a non selective non polar solvent such as DCM, Toluene, Xylene or D-Limonene.. Mix the solution thoroughly for a couple minutes. Raise the ph to 10 with a little more NaOH and mix again for another couple minutes before raising to 11, then 12 etc.. mixing well with the solvent each time the ph is raised. The reason for this is that some alkaloids might precipitate at different ph's. You are essentially extracting at various ph windows to ensure you extract as much of the different alkaloid profile as possible.

6. Separate solutions.. wash NP solvent with salty and basic (you can use sodium carb or NaOH) water solution and separate - discarding the water.

7. Evap solution with a fan. When its almost completely reduced allow it to evaporate slowly without the fan.

8. Wait until extract is dry and scrape up alkaloids

BTW did you harvest the material yourself?

[EDIT] If using d-limonene you will need to salt the alkaloids out of the solution, rebase and pull either with something acetone or ethanol .. or any of the other solvents I mentioned. Limonene leaves residues.
 
acacian
#13 Posted : 6/9/2020 6:49:45 PM

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dithyramb wrote:
Hey acacian! Thank you for bringing this important topic for discussion. In fact, "capturing the spirit of a plant" has been something I spend a lot of time contemplating and working on. I too am a wholist, and I feel right only when approaching the medicines as plants, and not as molecules.


Hey dithyramb... rock on! Smile I really am enjoying your phalaris thread.. your passion and respect for the plants is very evident both in your writing and your photos. It was actually what inspired me to start this thread. Keep up the great pioneering work!
 
Tony6Strings
#14 Posted : 6/9/2020 6:59:35 PM

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Thanks for this! I've started an extraction of a small amount of material (130 grams) which I powdered. I cracked my blender in several places doing so lol. I am starting with a standard A/B which has so far yeilded two pulls nice white crystal.

No, I didn't harvest this myself.
olympus mon wrote:
You need to hit it with intention to get where you want to be!

"We have arrived at truth, and now we find truth is a mystery- a play of joy, creation, and energy. This is source. This is the mystic touchstone that heals and renews. This is the beginning again. This is entheogenic." -Nicholas Sand
 
Tony6Strings
#15 Posted : 7/7/2020 9:53:41 PM

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https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=94373

Here is the thread about the extraction I mentioned in the above post. Final yeild 2.6 grams alkaloids from 130 grams bark. Did the final pull with xylene and yielded beautiful amber goo. There is also a thread titled "Acacia Goo Breakthrough" which is about a deep goo experience, has some pics of full spectrum acacia goo.

Here is my full spectrum mimosa extract goo, a xylene evap, slowly but surely crystallizing into solid scrapable weighable material (I hope, in any case the spots of crystalization are growing in size and number).
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olympus mon wrote:
You need to hit it with intention to get where you want to be!

"We have arrived at truth, and now we find truth is a mystery- a play of joy, creation, and energy. This is source. This is the mystic touchstone that heals and renews. This is the beginning again. This is entheogenic." -Nicholas Sand
 
dithyramb
#16 Posted : 7/11/2020 5:07:34 PM

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acacian wrote:
dithyramb wrote:
Hey acacian! Thank you for bringing this important topic for discussion. In fact, "capturing the spirit of a plant" has been something I spend a lot of time contemplating and working on. I too am a wholist, and I feel right only when approaching the medicines as plants, and not as molecules.


Hey dithyramb... rock on! Smile I really am enjoying your phalaris thread.. your passion and respect for the plants is very evident both in your writing and your photos. It was actually what inspired me to start this thread. Keep up the great pioneering work!


Love Acacian!
 
 
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