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Black Caapi Options
 
DeltaSpice
#1 Posted : 6/17/2020 4:15:08 PM

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Just looking for peoples thoughts on Black Caapi Banisteriopsis Vine...

Some years ago i had some black vine called "Thunder" . It was rite up their.. Very potent but nice at the same time..
I've since tried black vines that are potent but negative. Smoking just vine alks left me feeling rotten and boosted with DMT makes for a horrific experience..

Now i have some more black vine. This stuff too is very negative and i've yet to boost it with spice ..
Do you guys get negative thoughts feelings visions with Black Cappi.(Changa)

Thank you.
 

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Ferrum
#2 Posted : 6/29/2020 11:00:34 PM

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I have a thunder vine, caapi . I've never drank it . I've ate its leaves . No negative effects .

Black caapi I've never heard as Thunder caapi . Meaning I've never heard them one in the same .

I've heard these as black caapi . A black caapi cultivar and muricata called black aya and red aya . Black because of its vine color and an Alicia type also called black caapi . Which did nothing when I drank it at around 100 grams .

Black caapi is supposed to be witches caapi I'd heard . Brujo or bruja caapi and used for sending malicious darts at people .
But don't quote me on being any expert on that .

If I were you I'd try yellow cello caapi or white caapi . Hope this helped .
 
ShamensStamen
#3 Posted : 6/29/2020 11:53:10 PM
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Have you ever tried the Rue? Black Caapi is said to contain Harmaline as well as Harmine and THH, some people don't like Harmaline (whether in Caapi or Rue) because they feel it's darker than other types of Caapi vines. I however, work solely with the Rue seed and extracts, and don't get what all this darkness is about, not saying Rue/Harmaline can't be strong/potent and uncomfortable at times, but it's always been about the Light and spiritual/mystical/magical for me personally, certainly nothing malicious or evil or negative or wicked.
 
Ferrum
#4 Posted : 6/30/2020 5:00:35 AM

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Rue is good too. Good idea
 
mooai
#5 Posted : 6/30/2020 12:02:51 PM

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I am very interested in black caapi also as I like rue a lot, and black caapi like rue is speculated to be higher in harmaline. Anyone have any comparisons between black caapi and rue? Or even just black caapi vs other caapis? Just more potent or does it always have a much different signature? I've heard black isn't that much different from other colors from what people say on here I think but not sure. Maybe different sub strains too. And are you sure it's explicitly "negative/evil"? Or "dark" and perceived as negative? Harshness/darkness is different from negativity. A spider eating its mate is maybe dark, deadly, but not evil I wouldn't say by any means, it's nature and it's beautifully terrifying, some male spiders even have the instinct to throw themselves on the females fangs to nourish her and their child, satisfied knowing his purpose is served and he has won, I don't know if I would even say that's negative.

Though ShamensStamen I'm surprised you don't find rue at all dark. What doses do you take and always with a light plant? And do you only take the manskes? Whole seeds or simple water extracts are the darkest to me. Manske loses a lot of it. For me caapi makes me think things like mother earth, nature, healing, love, colorful, humanity, teaching (in a moreso familial or friendly way). Rue makes me feel things like mysticism, darkness, secret, ritualistic, witches, divinity, alien, dark, teaching but in a more disciplining stern way. I am still struggling with this but I personally prefer the dark parts better, but I'm hesitant to throw caapi to the wayside as it feels to me to be in many ways more healing than the rue, or at least have a different approach to healing.

I take rue frequently, at least once every 2-3 days in some form for the last 3+ months, often in high doses of 5g+. The reason I prefer the rue and the dark parts better, is because to me it feels more authentic. I like the 'pain' rue provides more, I think it just fits my personality better. I just can't have those pure love and light blissful trips anymore, nor do I want them. Only when the unspeakable darkness of humanity which I am painfully aware of and try, struggle to reconcile and think of ways I can do some good... Only with that darkness integrated do I have my best experiences. Reconciling that darkness in myself and in humanity is much of the reason I seek psychedelic experiences nowadays. The way it can explain to me and show me, artistically, visually, how our pain is necessary and for our greater vision, show me the broader picture and align me with a greater more noble purpose.

I remember the day after some very high dose yellow caapi extract (no light plant) I took, I had a prominent afterglow. I was extremely happy feeling, excited, elated, and... I didn't really like it. I just wanted to wait it out, to go back to feeling my normal self. Such outward happiness is not my style, I like to remain steady, calm, focused. For my work especially (computer related, technical) I prefer to remain in an equanimous (in some ways pessimistic, it's helpful to think of what might go wrong in a program before you write it) mindset where I feel I can think the most clearly. Rue can even have a little bit of a physical hangover for me if I take too much but I prefer that to that almost 'uncomfortably' happy feeling I had. Lol. It was a high dose but still, just to illustrate. I take yellow caapi often in smaller doses.

Took a few globs of extract of yellow caapi last night for a 4g-ish rue + ~1g of chali trip and I think it added a tint although the rue kind of overpowers it. Awesome experience, but maybe more spiritually enriching than healing (although it was healing too). Definitely going to be doing that again. I had my rue cold water extract and I just chewed up a couple chali leaves, swallowed one and sucked the juices out of another and spit out remains. The usual rue presences appeared, genies, desert stuff, desert creatures, scorpion, bat, and I wasn't sure how much chali I took cause I had ate that much before but I guess I ate a potent leaf cause wow did I feel it, perfect dose. It was like it lit up that rue space so much and I saw its temptingly beautiful darkness. Much of the what I see in my frequent rue doses without light plants, but more clear and fleshed out with maybe some other stuff too. Gothic vibes, felt like I was on a desert planet full of giant spiders, scorpions, almost everything looked a bit arachnid, insect, even saw what looked like plants of a planet that also looked spider like. Everything in that space and the whole experience had this cohesive gothic deserty vibe. Definitely a lot of scary stuff, but the kind of scary stuff where the initial reaction is to recoil, but then I always want to look back captivated, finding beauty in it. Like a gothic bride. Horror movie-esque in some ways. Gothic architecture type mansions that looked like dracula might live there, spider queens, all doing this grand dance for me... Not trying to scare me, it was just their nature as a spider or bat has its nature in our world, may be scary to us but it's a beautiful part of nature nonetheless. Ton of insight, revitalized direction, solutions to problems in my life, which I enacted immediately contacted some people and set up some meetings with old friends. More beautiful than euphoric for sure. Definitely very harsh feeling at times, like burning hot sun in the desert beating down on you and not quite enough water and cold refreshing foods while you hide away under cover in your sandstone house, but I actually value that harshness a lot, I feel like that mindstate has a lot to teach, I think our world needs some grit in it to solve the problems we have right now at least. If someone can thrive in that place, they could probably easily navigate our world which is much less harsh. Do I want that dark feeling? Hmm, maybe not at first glance in a lot of ways, it's more like I feel I need it. Not negativity for negativity's sake, but as a means to an end, and so I don't really consider it true 'negativity.'
 
endlessness
#6 Posted : 6/30/2020 2:00:52 PM

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This whole "color/type of caapi vine" issue has been debated a lot in the past.. I'll post some thoughts and then a couple of links of interest.

- There is no universal agreement on what consist a type/variety of vine. Different indigenous groups and churches have different classifications that are not recognized by others, and there may or may not be some overlap (check links below for a couple of examples)

- Officially in botany at least until this moment, there are no recognized varieties, there is only B. caapi.

- Another added complication is that vendors often make things up for marketing reasons. What guarantee is there, that vendor X's "black caapi" classification actually means something? None. In fact, we have seen several times in the past vendors selling a completely different plant that was NOT B. caapi, as "black caapi" (it was Alicia anisopetala in some cases which does not even contain harmalas and has unknown toxicity profile)

- Even if vendor X (or local shaman Y) is honest-to-god providing some plant that was identified by someone they trust as "Black caapi" (or whatever), there is no guarantee that it is the same as Vendor U or vendor Z's honest-to-god "Black caapi", or that even the same vendor or shaman's different batches of that supposed "Black caapi" will always be the same.

- While there is the possibility of some difference in ratio of harmala-related alkaloids and other trace compounds, there is no guarantee such difference will be stable for a supposed variety, nor that such differences necessarily result in different experiences all the time.

- The effects of self-suggestion is often ignored by people. As an example, if you keep reading "black caapi" is for black magic, isn't it way more likely you have negative experiences with it? Or even if not a dark experience, at least you might think its a different experience then "yellow caapi", but potentially both are exactly the same. Or maybe what people consider a qualitative difference in effects is due to a quantitative difference in amounts of same alkaloids. There are many possibilities to investigate, before taking at face value the claims made about the different varieties and effects.

Here are some relevant links:

Caapi Analysis Thread

Discussion on different supposed varieties of caapi

Here's another article on the necessity of developing new classifications for caapi.


a few other related links:

Random blog post in spanish claiming the Harakmbut recognize 22 types of ayahuasca , and that in north Peru they have 4 main types (tigre/rayo/cielo/boa) but that people don't agree with each other on what makes each type (the blog post does not source their statements)

A doctorate thesis in portuguese that says the Huni Kuin recognize 11 types. The names and description of the types are written in page 98

Another doctorate thesis in portuguese on the sustainability of ayahuasca, which includes the classifications of caapi used by Santo Daime, recognizing from 3-11 types (includes pictures and descriptions of types).


 
ShamensStamen
#7 Posted : 6/30/2020 9:09:42 PM
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mooai wrote:
Though ShamensStamen I'm surprised you don't find rue at all dark. What doses do you take and always with a light plant? And do you only take the manskes? Whole seeds or simple water extracts are the darkest to me. Manske loses a lot of it. For me caapi makes me think things like mother earth, nature, healing, love, colorful, humanity, teaching (in a moreso familial or friendly way). Rue makes me feel things like mysticism, darkness, secret, ritualistic, witches, divinity, alien, dark, teaching but in a more disciplining stern way. I am still struggling with this but I personally prefer the dark parts better, but I'm hesitant to throw caapi to the wayside as it feels to me to be in many ways more healing than the rue, or at least have a different approach to healing.

I take rue frequently, at least once every 2-3 days in some form for the last 3+ months, often in high doses of 5g+. The reason I prefer the rue and the dark parts better, is because to me it feels more authentic. I like the 'pain' rue provides more, I think it just fits my personality better. I just can't have those pure love and light blissful trips anymore, nor do I want them. Only when the unspeakable darkness of humanity which I am painfully aware of and try, struggle to reconcile and think of ways I can do some good... Only with that darkness integrated do I have my best experiences. Reconciling that darkness in myself and in humanity is much of the reason I seek psychedelic experiences nowadays. The way it can explain to me and show me, artistically, visually, how our pain is necessary and for our greater vision, show me the broader picture and align me with a greater more noble purpose.


Yeah i don't find the Rue dark, it can be harsh/rough at times, it can be quite stern, in your face, disciplining, like a tough love type thing, it can be quite strong, sometimes uncomfortable, a friend of mine once said it made him feel like he had been poisoned lol, but for the most part it's been a very reliable and honest and authentic and caring and teaching plant.

I almost exclusively work with the actual seed, i don't make teas, i encapsulate the seed powder (though i've taken a fancy to roasting the whole seeds prior to grinding them into a powder), i've also used full spectrum freebased Rue extract, as well as Manske'd freebased purified Harmala extract, if i go the extract route i much prefer the full spectrum extract, the purified Harmala extract just feels too isolated/clean for my liking, i much prefer to have more of the plant feel/personality in the mix.

As far as dosages go, i've taken all sorts of dosages, usually i never go above 4.5 grams of Rue but i take it regularly (a lot of times daily for months on end) so the reverse tolerance builds up and the Harmala content gets stronger and stronger negating the need to raise the dosage of actual Rue, also cleans up the side-effect profile with regular consumption. And i took Rue and Mimosa/Acacia daily/near daily for 4 years to begin with, then took full spectrum Rue extract daily for 8 months straight at 180 to 200mgs a day, and then earlier this year in February i took the roasted Rue seed powder capsules daily at 3 grams, then raised it to 4.5 grams, tried 7 grams of the seed powder one night, kept taking the 4.5 grams, and then lowered it to 3.5 grams and kept taking that until earlier this month (a few weeks ago) when i stopped taking the Rue, so took it daily almost 5 whole months.

As far as visuals go, i tend to not get closed eyed visuals, or third eye imagery, even with DMT in the mix, for me it's more about the body, mind and soul/spirit.

But yeah there is something to be said about working through the darkness within oneself and the darkness of Humanity, and integrating it and all. I find Rue to be very disciplining, but highly rewarding. For me, especially with the DMT in the mix, even though there can be some darker/serious elements to it, it's very Light-filled, quite illuminating and enlightening. Definitely brought me to study the esoteric/mystical stuff whereas beforehand i never had a clue such a thing even existed lol. It's definitely a path, process and practice, as well as art, imo, so i choose Rue as my teacher plant, i'm sure Caapi is good too, but Rue has been there with me since day 1 and i've developed a relationship with it, it's my Harmala-containing plant of choice and i really have nothing bad to say about it other than the vomiting can be rough at times and the body load can be rough at times, but overall it's great.
 
mooai
#8 Posted : 7/1/2020 1:03:21 AM

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ShamensStamen wrote:
I almost exclusively work with the actual seed, i don't make teas, i encapsulate the seed powder (though i've taken a fancy to roasting the whole seeds prior to grinding them into a powder), i've also used full spectrum freebased Rue extract, as well as Manske'd freebased purified Harmala extract, if i go the extract route i much prefer the full spectrum extract, the purified Harmala extract just feels too isolated/clean for my liking, i much prefer to have more of the plant feel/personality in the mix.


Much agreed on the full spectrum having much more personality. The difference between manske & whole seeds is striking. Much more colorful and a sense of a presence.

How long and at what temp did you toast them at? I found putting in oven at 400-450F for about an hour (or maybe 2 I didn't time it accurately) to destroy many of the actives. I think it destroyed almost everything because upon a manske I got almost no product. The stuff I got was almost tasteless. And the seeds did not have the same bitter gagging harmaline taste. I think the oils cause nausea/darkness in the experience too because the much lighter colored cold water extracts I do produce almost no nausea with much more psychedelia. I think the oils might get destroyed too maybe upon my long toast cause they didn't make me at all nauseous upon eating a lot. But you may be toasting shorter. Ever do a manske on your toasted seeds and compare vs manske on untoasted to see if you're losing any?
 
ShamensStamen
#9 Posted : 7/1/2020 1:30:42 AM
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I haven't done an extract on the roasted seeds, though that is something i will try next time i go for making extract. I roast/toast them in the oven at about 350 degrees for about 20 minutes, sometimes a little longer, i try to use a big pan and spread out the seeds so they're not packed on top of each other because then they don't roast/toast as well, and if they're in there too long they can burn and probably do get reduced in terms of potency, but if you roast/toast them properly, they don't seem to lose any potency that i've noticed. I too do think the oils contributes to increased discomfort and such, because when i roast/toast the seeds i can tell they are drier and don't seem to contain the oils, and it's a much cleaner feeling experience for sure.
 
 
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