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Changa with Harmine HCL Options
 
gatezz
#1 Posted : 5/23/2020 6:44:45 PM

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Recently made changa using harmine hcl as I was unaware that freebase is typically what is used. I tried the harmine hcl separately sandwiched between mullein and it definitely provided effects. Does anyone have any experience with this? Is it safe to use or should I try and recover the DMT somehow?
 

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VibeSurfer
#2 Posted : 5/23/2020 7:36:38 PM

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There's nothing wrong with using Harmine hcl in your changa. It's not unsafe compared to freebase or anything like that.
"It was altruism, not violence or force, which associated our higher cortex. Our intent is to awaken that memory." - Indigo
 
Brennendes Wasser
#3 Posted : 5/24/2020 1:59:19 AM

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Well but the Vaporization temperature is quite higher. And harmine already vaporizes quite high, at least a few dozen °C higher than DMT.

Therefore it may work, but based on plain theory you would have to add more heat and therefore have a higher chance of burning / overtorching your DMT on the other hand.

So even if you will observe working it I would go for freebase the next time.

The best thing altogether still is to just eat 200 mg Harmalas at 40 min before you vape anything. Just eat this dose and you are good for the next 2 h with a strong harmala effect, while smoking just pure Freebase. Easier and more relaxed.
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 
gatezz
#4 Posted : 5/24/2020 2:13:23 PM

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VibeSurfer wrote:
There's nothing wrong with using Harmine hcl in your changa. It's not unsafe compared to freebase or anything like that.


I had read somewhere that the hcl could be irritating to your lungs. good to know.
 
gatezz
#5 Posted : 5/24/2020 2:14:20 PM

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Brennendes Wasser wrote:
Well but the Vaporization temperature is quite higher. And harmine already vaporizes quite high, at least a few dozen °C higher than DMT.

Therefore it may work, but based on plain theory you would have to add more heat and therefore have a higher chance of burning / overtorching your DMT on the other hand.

So even if you will observe working it I would go for freebase the next time.

The best thing altogether still is to just eat 200 mg Harmalas at 40 min before you vape anything. Just eat this dose and you are good for the next 2 h with a strong harmala effect, while smoking just pure Freebase. Easier and more relaxed.

Appreciate the advice. Wasn't sure if I just ruined this batch of changa or not.
 
Brennendes Wasser
#6 Posted : 5/25/2020 1:06:22 AM

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Quote:
I had read somewhere that the hcl could be irritating to your lungs. good to know.


The idea of possible irritations when using salts for vaporization is like follows:

Normally molecules in their salt forms have a highly increased melting and vaporization temp. Sometimes they wont even vaporize anymore and degrade directly into other stuff.

This is of course very unpractical. Still it was found by some users that you may indeed vaporize DMT Acetate. The vapor was reported to be more harsh and not so pleasant.

Therefore it comes in mind that the salt may be taken up, but form acetic acid again, which would be irritating when inhaled. And inhaling any other acid, masked behind a salt, would therefore possibly also act as you would have inhaled the original acid.

I highly doubt that when heating a Alkaloid*HCl it forms airborne HCl which you may inhale, but still you should focus on using freebase molecules for vaping.

If you are unsure and would like to revert:

Place your Changa in water - this will only dissolve the Harmalas. Just let it sit, dont move it, this would maybe also detach some DMT from the herbs.
Then get them out, dry em and apply a base to your water. Then the Harmalas crash out and you can collect them. Dont forget to wash them until they are free of any base (like NaOH that you used to freebase them). A possible way is to either use Ammonia (which will not leave back anything as NH4OH will dissociate into NH3 and H2O, unlike NaOH) or you could use 1 big container, let the freebase Harmalas settle to the ground, decant as many water as possible and then add new water and repeat. Do this until the pH is around 7-8, then the Harmala freebase is free of any NaOH and you can decant and dry them.
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 
blue.magic
#7 Posted : 5/25/2020 12:37:44 PM

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gatezz wrote:
Recently made changa using harmine hcl as I was unaware that freebase is typically what is used. I tried the harmine hcl separately sandwiched between mullein and it definitely provided effects. Does anyone have any experience with this? Is it safe to use or should I try and recover the DMT somehow?


Anhydrous harmine HCl melts at 319 degC, that's twice the vaporization temperature of DMT and even higher temp. is needed for it to vaporize.

I strongly suggest using freebase to prevent breathing in HCl, DMT N-oxide and many other products of pyrolysis.
 
gatezz
#8 Posted : 5/25/2020 10:03:17 PM

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blue.magic wrote:
gatezz wrote:
Recently made changa using harmine hcl as I was unaware that freebase is typically what is used. I tried the harmine hcl separately sandwiched between mullein and it definitely provided effects. Does anyone have any experience with this? Is it safe to use or should I try and recover the DMT somehow?


Anhydrous harmine HCl melts at 319 degC, that's twice the vaporization temperature of DMT and even higher temp. is needed for it to vaporize.

I strongly suggest using freebase to prevent breathing in HCl, DMT N-oxide and many other products of pyrolysis.

Appreciate the information. Do you know of any way to recover the DMT by chance?
 
Brennendes Wasser
#9 Posted : 5/25/2020 11:06:39 PM

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DMT is very soluble in Acetone and Harmala salts aren't at all. Just place the Changa in Acetone, close the container and decant after 1 h. You could just stirr, but this may break some fine particles from the plant material, making it worse decanting.

To retrieve the Harmalas you could use water and then basify it as told, but I would honestly toss them and create some new Freebase Harmalas. If you dont have anymore plant material, place the leaves + Harmala salts in warm water and also retrieve after 1 h. Then dry the leaves and you can add new Harmala + Spice Freebase.

Harmala Freebase never dissolved for me in any solvent. I just used to sprinkle them on top of the flat layer of Plant Material in Acetone.
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 
blue.magic
#10 Posted : 5/26/2020 12:55:21 AM

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Brennendes Wasser wrote:
Harmala Freebase never dissolved for me in any solvent


Methanol works, ethanol works too but more is needed (and near-boiling temp.). Acetone surely works (tried last time).
As for the alcohols, I used only anhydrous, though.

The dissolution is tricky and takes some time - I usually stir it on a hotplate and slowly add the solvent once in a while until it completely dissolves and the solution becomes transparent.

It however takes pure harmalas (at least 3x Manske) as the undissolved solids might be actually something else.
 
Brennendes Wasser
#11 Posted : 5/26/2020 1:21:31 AM

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I never did Manske as I did not feel any discomfort when eating 200 mg, so I feel just fine basifying to pH 13 and then just rinsing them until neutral. Could be a good point in terms of solubility, but the solubility was practically 0 in any cases still : /

Using boiling Methanol and Ethanol also never worked ... even high amounts. But actually I only tested it once with the first Harmalas I ever had and maybe it was a cursed batch Big grin

Nevertheless now I just eat 200 mg Harmalas 45 mins before - much more convenient to add even more to the smokable material. Or at least favorable for smoker-noobs like me ...
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 
gatezz
#12 Posted : 5/26/2020 2:14:38 PM

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Brennendes Wasser wrote:
DMT is very soluble in Acetone and Harmala salts aren't at all. Just place the Changa in Acetone, close the container and decant after 1 h. You could just stirr, but this may break some fine particles from the plant material, making it worse decanting.

To retrieve the Harmalas you could use water and then basify it as told, but I would honestly toss them and create some new Freebase Harmalas. If you dont have anymore plant material, place the leaves + Harmala salts in warm water and also retrieve after 1 h. Then dry the leaves and you can add new Harmala + Spice Freebase.

Harmala Freebase never dissolved for me in any solvent. I just used to sprinkle them on top of the flat layer of Plant Material in Acetone.

I actually used acetone while making this changa. The harmalas did seem to dissolve so I'd be concerned of that if attempting to recover the dmt. Do you know of any more selective solvents? would heptane or naptha potentially work?
 
Brennendes Wasser
#13 Posted : 5/26/2020 5:12:20 PM

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Heptane / Naphtha would not dissolve them I'm sure, but if you really used Harmine*HCl, it sounds quite strange as these salts should not be soluble in Acetone. I haven't checked, but salting the Alkaloids should only make them water soluble.

If so you could still use water first to dissolve the Harmine*HCl and then just dry the leaves (which still contain the DMT) and add new freebase Harmalas / Harmine.
Check the

BIG Analysis on DMT !

Lots of interesting and possibly new stuff unraveled ;o
 
gatezz
#14 Posted : 5/26/2020 5:38:42 PM

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Brennendes Wasser wrote:
Heptane / Naphtha would not dissolve them I'm sure, but if you really used Harmine*HCl, it sounds quite strange as these salts should not be soluble in Acetone. I haven't checked, but salting the Alkaloids should only make them water soluble.

If so you could still use water first to dissolve the Harmine*HCl and then just dry the leaves (which still contain the DMT) and add new freebase Harmalas / Harmine.

That sounds like a great idea, thanks for all of the help!
 
gatezz
#15 Posted : 6/8/2020 6:36:22 PM

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I decided to go ahead and soak the changa I made in heptane in order to recover the dmt. I have noticed that the solution is now a light green color. Any ideas as to why that may be? Was thinking it may be chlorophyll from the herbs, I used mullein and B Caapi. The DMT I initially used for the changa was a light yellow color.
 
 
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