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Phenylethylamine, MAO-B, Mistletoe Options
 
dithyramb
#1 Posted : 4/7/2020 7:41:22 PM

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Hi dear Nexians,

I have a question for you.

I am no pharmacology expert, but from what I have read I got the impression that phenylethylamine is to mescaline, what dmt is to psilocybin (structurally analogous but simpler, found endogenously, with comparable effects).

Does that make sense to you guys?

If this is true, then isn't there a possible medicine that can be created with phenylethylamine and an MAO-B inhibitor?

I am starting to experiment with mistletoe, said to contain phenylethylamine and elaeagnus angustifolia bark, which I sense is more of an MAO B inhibitor than an MAO A inhibitor.

I feel traces of San Pedro in all aspects of the experience...

And spiritually mistletoe is getting my highest respect 💚

Thanks in advance for your input.
 

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downwardsfromzero
#2 Posted : 4/7/2020 10:15:17 PM

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FWIW, Shulgin mentioned that a species of mistletoe (a Loranthus species, IIRC) contains N1-ethyltryptamine - a true isomer of DMT (with the carbon atoms joined in a short chain on the pyrrole nitrogen instead of singly on the ethylamine nitrogen). The relevance (and providence) of this information requires further assessment.

Without an analysis of the plant you are using, it would be premature to ascribe the effects you feel to phenethylamine. TLC would be a good place to start.

Preparation of mistletoe (Viscum album) for medicinal use often consists of cold-brewing in order to preserve its heat-sensitive components. Thus we have a likelihood that different effects occur depending on the method used.

Presumably you are familiar with the 'feel' of the Elaeagnus bark alone?

The ring substituents of mescaline make a big difference in the effects over those of phenethylamine alone - bigger than the difference between DMT and psilocybin.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
dithyramb
#3 Posted : 4/8/2020 8:58:50 AM

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Hey downwardsfromzero, thanks for your reply. Yes I am familiar with elaeagnus angustifolia bark's feel. I am also familiar with Viscum album's feel, I have done a lot of high dose experiments. It is a very wise, benign, masculine teacher.

True, I cannot ascribe any effects to phenylethylamine without doing a TLC. From what you are saying, I get the impression that my premises are unknown, but if they are true, then this just might work.

I've read about a tryptamine found in mistletoe berries, but couldn't find the exact source. Which species is that exactly, I wonder. And what about any tryptamines in Viscum album?

There are some commonalities that I find between Viscum album and San Pedro. The heart opening, the sensuality, the "laterally opening" vision/consciousness, the extraversion and physical expansiveness/discovery and conquering. The kind of euphoria. All these, but just not the "in your face psychedelic" kind. I am looking into if it could be made to be that way.
 
doubledog
#4 Posted : 4/8/2020 9:51:49 AM

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Effects of mistletoe are quite interesting, it is really slightly similar to mescaline, especially in changes of visual field and positions of objects in it and in euphoria.
 
dithyramb
#5 Posted : 4/8/2020 4:34:53 PM

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Thanks for sharing your experience, doubledog. I'm glad to see someone else has noticed the similarity.

I wonder, is there anybody familiar with the effects of orally activated phenylethylamine?

About mistletoe preparation: I thought the cold extraction technique was recommended because of the purported toxicity of the plant (which I have come upon no evidence for thus far). I eat it raw sometimes (up to more than 100 leaves, with stalks and berries included). It does feel a bit different that wat - the masculine empowerment is more ponounced - but I haven't tried eating after drinking elaeagnus yet.
 
downwardsfromzero
#6 Posted : 4/10/2020 10:06:08 PM

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It becomes increasingly clear why mistletoe was sacred to the druids.


I was about to ask the following: [Have you been using commercially available dried mistletoe for your experiments? And have you ever combined it with Peganum harmala?] - but reading your last post I get the impression that you pick the plant yourself, and you are yet to experience combining it with MAOI of any form.


dithyramb wrote:
is there anybody familiar with the effects of orally activated phenylethylamine?

There was a thread buried in the depths of the forum: Phenylethylamine: The Grandfather of Psychedelics Unveiled; I don't think that mentions any MAOI though. {Edit: actually there was this post, and this post as well.}

Here's a potentially related footnote to a different subject: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=590413#post590413
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
dithyramb
#7 Posted : 4/11/2020 1:48:15 PM

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Thanks for the forum resources, downwardsfromzero!

Mistletoe is found to have beta-phenylethylamine. What does the beta imply?

Mistletoe is empathogenic for sure. Also euphoric and gives visual acuteness. Could it become Visionary is the question. I have two experiences mixing it with elaeagnus bark so far. They feel synergistic but it doesn't feel like a previously dormant component has been activated. İs Peganum harmala a substantial Mao b inhibitor? I could not find information on this. Perhaps as I should try that.

Viscum album also has acetylcholine, choline, and gaba among other components.

BTw, the most sacred mistletoe of the Druids is supposedly the one that grows on oak. As far as I know, Viscum album does not grow on oak, İ certainly have not come across one on oak. Loranthus europaeus is the species that grows on oak. İs that the one that has the tryptamine which Shulgin revealed?
 
doubledog
#8 Posted : 4/11/2020 2:26:24 PM

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Rue is said to be weak MAO B inhibítor, but as it is also popular enhancer for various substances, could be worth to try with mistletoe.

Combination with mescaline is another area for investigating.

I wonder what could be the good way to make some concentrate from mistletoe?
 
downwardsfromzero
#9 Posted : 4/13/2020 9:55:13 PM

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dithyramb wrote:
Mistletoe is found to have beta-phenylethylamine. What does the beta imply?

The beta means the phenyl (benzene) ring is joined to the second carbon atom when counting from the amine nitrogen. The carbon atom to which the amine group is attached is termed the alpha carbon. An obsolete name for beta-phenylethylamine could be omega-phenylethylamine, because it is the carban atom at the other end of the side-chain from the nitrogen.

Quote:
Mistletoe is empathogenic for sure. Also euphoric and gives visual acuteness.

What doses have you tried for this level of efficacy? And what method of preparation?

Quote:
BTw, the most sacred mistletoe of the Druids is supposedly the one that grows on oak. As far as I know, Viscum album does not grow on oak, İ certainly have not come across one on oak. Loranthus europaeus is the species that grows on oak. İs that the one that has the tryptamine which Shulgin revealed?

Have you seen this mistletoe thread?
[Note that 1-ethyltryptamine is not the same as N'-ethyltryptamine! The structure towards the start of the above thread is incorrect!]
Anyhow, in post #8:
wira wrote:
Unfortunately Shulgin doesn't say what species of mistletoe it was found in


AFAIK, V.album can be found on oak in the UK. I know someone who has harvested this species from oaks commercially, at least I'm 95% sure oak was among the host species. Mistletoe is locally abundant and easily can be seen in the leafless trees during the winter. I never climbed up to make a positive specific identification, however.

It seems the taxonomy of Loranthus is rather unclear. Starting with the Wikipedia article, we can see there are several species of Loranthus in China. The Chinese name for Loranthus is Sang Ji Sheng. This is apparently L. parasiticus Merr. or L. yadoriki Siebold. Other names are Sang Shang Ji Sheng, Bei Sang Ji, Guang Sang Ji (all in Mandarin), Song Gei Sang (in Cantonese) and Sokisei (Japanese). An English translation seems to be "Mulberry parasite" which implies the host trees, or at least one of them, fairly clearly.

If you like, I can scan the relevant pages from my Chinese herbal. It warns against long-term use in high doses.

Other species of Loranthus are known from India and Africa.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
dragonrider
#10 Posted : 4/13/2020 10:10:04 PM

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The warning against long term use in high doses...isn't that because there where some indications that it might be slightly cardiotoxic?
 
downwardsfromzero
#11 Posted : 4/13/2020 10:48:10 PM

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dragonrider wrote:
The warning against long term use in high doses...isn't that because there where some indications that it might be slightly cardiotoxic?

I don't specifically know. The nature of the chronic toxicity is not stated in my herbal. Do you have a source? And is this for mistletoes in general?

Symptoms of acute mistletoe toxicity can include bradycardia so it's certainly conceivable that long-term dosage could affect the heart adversely. That, and the empathogenic effects described mirror those of MDMA, which is known to have cardiotoxic potential. This does not imply a similar mechanism for the toxicity.

Toxicity study (haematological effects).

Chronic toxicity study (in German): Böcher E, Stumpf C, Büssing A, Schietzel M. Prospektive Bewertung der Toxizität hochdosierter Viscum album L.-Infusionen bei Patienten mit progredienten Malignomen. [Prospective evaluation of the toxicity of high-dose Viscum album L infusions in patients with progressive malignant disease]. Zeitschrift für Onkologie 1996; 28.

Study on variation in constituents with different host trees: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10226520
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
dithyramb
#12 Posted : 4/14/2020 7:48:18 PM

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Hi downwardsfromzero,

Thanks for the explanation.

To achieve a strong drunkenness with mistletoe, I either eat 20 - 40 leaves and stalks, fresh or dry;or I boil the same amount for more than half an hour after chopping it up. Boiled together with Russian olive bark it is magical. My best experience with it was with a tea , ro bark, mistletoe, and a local species of Mugwort, boiled separately but later alloyed together with a boil to mix and harmonize them all.

Yes, I know that thread. Is it really about a Loranthus species or is it about Viscum album? And do we know anything about the subjective effects of 1-ethyltryptamine? I have eaten a lot of mistletoe berries without experiencing unique effects. I haven't tried eating the berries with an MAOI though. There are some faint hints about sacred Celtic potions made from the berries...


I don't know anything about Loranthus species. I wwelcome your offer for valuable resource. Thank you.

Viscum album is always narrated with a warning on toxicity, however the LD50 is quite high, and I have done numerous brave experiments on myself. I doubt there is any short or long term toxicity with it.
 
wira
#13 Posted : 4/19/2020 6:16:21 PM

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Very interesting!
After some 20 years of searching for the source of that 1-ethyltryptamine in mistletoe claim, I've come to the conclusion Sasha made a mistake (yes, it happens even to someone like him!). Believe me, I spared no effort in the search and the only paper I could find that mentioned that alkaloid and mistletoe was an old French paper analysing Viscum album, which I located a copy of a few years ago. It was used as a reference compound along with numerous others, but was not reported to have been found in the extracts. (I had asked Sasha about this when he was alive but he couldn't remember where he got that information from.)
 
dithyramb
#14 Posted : 4/20/2020 10:09:32 PM

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I have read research papers which refer vaguely to "amines" present in viscum album. But the tryptamine might be a myth to be discarded.

It's just my hypothesis that Russian Olive bark is an mao-b inhibitor. We know that hordenine is for sure, though. Perhaps I should try mistletoe with a hordenine rich grass and report back.
 
 
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