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Whole Nutmeg while on an MAO-A Inhibitor Options
 
PowerfulMedicine
#1 Posted : 3/3/2014 4:19:19 AM

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I plan on starting a low dose syrian rue regimen next week. I will continue it until Easter. I'll be taking 2-4g brews on most days with occasional higher doses and will include DMT once a week.

I've also wanted to start working with whole nutmeg more regularly. I've read conflicting reports on the combination of nutmeg and MAOIs. I'll probably have to put off the nutmeg experiments until after Easter, but I just wanted to see if people on the Nexus have any experience with this combo or any useful information about it.
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Entropymancer
#2 Posted : 3/3/2014 4:51:35 AM

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I would caution against working with nutmeg regularly, especially whole nutmeg. At the very least, you should consider the dangers of regularly consuming substantial quantities of camphene. See "the mother of all nutmeg posts" for details.
 
PowerfulMedicine
#3 Posted : 3/3/2014 6:15:19 AM

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There are a few problems with that post you linked to. First of all, camphene doesn't make up a major part of nutmeg essential oil. Maybe some rare geographic regions produce oils rich in camphene, but it actually makes up about .3% of the essential oil on average. I have attached a scientific paper as evidence in case you don't believe me.

Therefore, 30g of nutmeg with 15% essential oil will only contain 13.5mg of camphene. So any worries about camphene in nutmeg are completely overblown regardless of the true toxicity of camphene.

But that post is even wrong about the toxicity of camphene. The LD50 in rats is >5g/kg:

Camphene: Toxnet

And I can't even find any proof that camphene is metabolized into "camphor-like substances". That ketone group on camphor likely makes it much different from camphene (which lacks the oxygen).

That post pulls a lot of stuff out of thin air without support and is just completely mistaken about a few things.
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oilman
#4 Posted : 3/4/2014 1:47:59 AM

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Agreed. Camphene is used as a food additive and I haven't heard of significant toxicology. Camphor is a different compound; they are related by sound of the names but not pharmacological action. Additionally, nutmeg butter is NOT the volatile and non-volatile oils. Nutmeg butter DOES NOT contain the volatile oils; it is the fixed fraction and is mostly trimyristin (as much as 80%), whereas the volatile fraction is mostly allylbenzenes and terpenes.

This is to get dimethylamine forms to work?
 
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#5 Posted : 3/4/2014 2:09:54 AM

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PowerfulMedicine,

Have you had many past experiences with nutmeg alone? If so could you outline the content briefly?

I've had a handful of experiences with nutmeg and I believe I over-shot the dosage each time due to the long onset. It became something I would never again consider so... naturally I'm curious of the reasoning to combine it with an RIMA compound.

Are we talking potential synergy with very low doses of nutmeg?
 
PowerfulMedicine
#6 Posted : 3/4/2014 4:21:48 AM

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I've used whole nutmeg twice, about 30g both times. This is a high dose but I tend to have very high tolerances to all substances. This produced moderate psychedelic effects (but closer to the mild side) for the first 12 hours. The next day I felt extremely stoned. And the next day was mostly antidepressant with a few short lived slight headaches. For me, the worst side effect was dry mouth.

Nutmeg isn't for everyone, but I've enjoyed the effects of nutmeg and would like to explore it more as it presents an opportunity to better understand the nature of allylbenzenes and oilahuasca theory. I've also found that harmalas are a near universal potentiator when they can be safely combined with other substances, so I'd like to know whether I can use them to safely potentiate nutmeg.

There are also more subtle reasons relating to exploration of oilahuasca theories, but that isn't really why I originally made this thread.

I'm going on a daily syrian rue regimen for lent. I just wanted to decide whether I should put off any nutmeg experiments until after Easter.

I guess I should put off most nutmeg experiments, though, since the harmalas will interfere with the results of any nutmeg tests. I might still test the harmala and nutmeg combination though, assuming that I can find evidence that this combination isn't too dangerous.
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Du57mi73
#7 Posted : 3/4/2014 12:13:52 PM

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You should just do your lent thing, and consult the nutmeg later. No reason to get greedy with the experimentation. Smile
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PowerfulMedicine
#8 Posted : 3/5/2014 3:12:11 AM

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Yeah, I've decided that I'm gonna put off most of the nutmeg experimentation until after Easter. But I still want to test this combo once or twice, assuming that it isn't too dangerous.

As far as I can find, there aren't any compounds in nutmeg that are known to be dangerous when combined with a RIMA.

In fact, some sources claim that nutmeg has MAOI properties itself. Quercetin is an MAO-B inhibitor. There are also small amounts of eugenol and methyleugenol in nutmeg, both of which have mild MAO-A inhibiting properties. Myristicin is even sometimes cited as an MAOI, but these claims are dubious.

But the MAOI properties of nutmeg are weak if they are even measurable.

The main things that are really dangerous when combined with RIMAs are serotonin and norepinephrine increasing drugs. The exact pharmacology of nutmeg varies and overall is unknown, so that's what makes this potentially dangerous.

Nutmeg might increase serotonin or norepinephrine enough to cause serotonin syndrome or hypertensive crisis when combined with a RIMA. It's also possible that nutmeg is hypotensive enough to cause a hypotensive crisis when combined with harmalas.

There is one often repeated quote saying that nutmeg is contradicted when on an MAOI, but I can't find any explanation as to why. I also can't find any experience reports of this combination.

Maybe nobody has ever really tried this before?
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downwardsfromzero
#9 Posted : 12/8/2015 4:52:45 PM

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I'm going to push the boat out here and finally test this out myself. I have some freshly precipitated harmalas, and a fair amount of nutmeg experience under my belt. I'll dose very low, and take good care of my liver and blood pressure. I genuinely have considerable experience of controlled self-poisoning (make that my epitaph!)

Nutmeg, poison, yada, yada yada. Yeah, don't anyone else try this. (I'll be back!)
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Cognitive Heart
#10 Posted : 12/8/2015 7:36:30 PM

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Nutmeg is a strange one.. most likely utterly strange with rue. Certainly not for the faint of heart! Laughing
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downwardsfromzero
#11 Posted : 12/8/2015 8:52:28 PM

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Cognitive Heart wrote:
Nutmeg is a strange one.. albeit utterly strange with rue. Certainly not for the faint of heart! Laughing

Aha! Sounds like you have experience - have you logged this anywhere?

I have developed my methods with nutmeg, a couple of tinctures with reasonably forgiving dose/response curves. Effects are noticeable at very low doses (12 drops), and I've quite happily survived an accidental dose of 100x that (40mL). I have a feeling I may be ~blessed with an aberrant metabolic profile Confused

I do not personally advocate the ingestion of large amounts of powdered nutmeg.

I'm also very wary of unpredictable (CYP-based?) metabolic interactions between harmala alkaloids and whatever is in the nutmeg.
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Cognitive Heart
#12 Posted : 12/8/2015 11:38:53 PM

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I've written about my nutmeg experiences on related threads but I haven't mixed this substance together with rue. I got enough potentiation from cannabis alone. It may be dangerous with rue. I might be wrong, though. I'm still unsure if I ever will enter the nutmeg space ever again. Perhaps rue can alleviate any unwanted effects of nutmeg(such as memory disturbances) while enhancing some of its effects.
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benzyme
#13 Posted : 12/9/2015 5:03:31 AM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
I'm also very wary of unpredictable (CYP-based?) metabolic interactions between harmala alkaloids and whatever is in the nutmeg.



myristicin.
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downwardsfromzero
#14 Posted : 12/9/2015 12:05:05 PM

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benzyme wrote:
downwardsfromzero wrote:
I'm also very wary of unpredictable (CYP-based?) metabolic interactions between harmala alkaloids and whatever is in the nutmeg.



myristicin.

So they say, also elemicin, safrole, sabinene, pinenes, phellandrenes, terpinenes, p-cymene, linalool and other volatile and non-volatile compounds (alkaloids are present, for example).

I do not believe the effects of nutmeg are solely due to the myristicin, or necessarily even the combination of the three main phenylpropenes present. Tincture of nutmeg is active at such preposterously small doses that I feel there are other, possibly unknown, factors that contribute to nutmeg's psychoactivity. (I'm referring to the tincture here - I've not felt very inspired to use the essential oil.)

Then again, I've never experienced the effects of pure myristicin (but I'd be willing to try, in the interests of science. Donations gratefully received...)
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benzyme
#15 Posted : 12/9/2015 1:38:27 PM

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myristicin and elemicin, respectively, are the primary active components in nutmeg.
the terpenes, pinenes, and all the other isoprene derivatives are centrally inactive, and mostly just contribute to its wonderful aroma.
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downwardsfromzero
#16 Posted : 12/11/2015 2:52:03 AM

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benzyme wrote:
myristicin and elemicin, respectively, are the primary active components in nutmeg.
the terpenes, pinenes, and all the other isoprene derivatives are centrally inactive, and mostly just contribute to its wonderful aroma.

As I said,
Quote:
I'm also very wary of unpredictable (CYP-based?) metabolic interactions

which is not reliant on the component in question being centrally active.

And ask a cannabis aficionado just how irrelevant terpenes might be to cannabis' central effects Wink

Whether centrally active or not, these terpenes nonetheless contribute their presence within the body's metabolic systems. The tincture also contains other substances besides these volatile aroma compounds.

To reiterate, I'm wary of the metabolic and physiological effects of all these things when contemplating their interaction with harmala alkaloids. Some of these effects may contribute to the surprising potency (IME) of nutmeg tincture.

There is more than one thread about the contribution that terpenes and terpenoids make to the psychoactive effects of cannabis, so I wouldn't dismiss them entirely out of hand.

People who eat a whole ounce of nutmeg powder could have had far more rewarding experiences by making a tincture instead. More rewarding, and more experiences. That said, I still wouldn't recommend it to anyone as the effects are long-lasting and unpredictable. Keep nutmeg for your egg nog or rice pudding.
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downwardsfromzero
#17 Posted : 7/4/2016 10:23:03 PM

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Done a bit more lit. research:

downwardsfromzero wrote:
whatever is in the nutmeg.


There are quite a few neolignan compounds in nutmeg, one of which is an incredibly potent CYP2D9 inhibitor.

Quote:
Among these isolates, (1S,2R)-1-acetoxy-2-(4-allyl-2,6-dimethoxyphenoxy)-1-(3,4-dimethoxyphenyl)propane (9) exhibited the most potent CYP2C9 inhibitory activity with an IC50 value comparable to that of sulfaphenazole, a CYP2C9 inhibitor. Compound 9 competitively inhibited CYP2C9-mediated 4′-hydroxylation of diclofenac. The inhibitory constant (Ki) of 9 was determined to be 0.037 μM. Compound 9 was found to be 14-fold more potent than was sulfaphenazole.


Here. Also attached below.

This hints more at how whole nutmeg, or its broad-spectrum extracts, is more reliably active than pure myristicin.

I've still yet to find anything definitive about the alkaloids which are known to be in nutmeg. Anybody out there got anything? otherwise I'm seriously going to go back to university over this (some of the nutmeg 'research' out there is worse than shoddy.)
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downwardsfromzero
#18 Posted : 4/10/2020 9:26:48 PM

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Knowing what I know now I'll add here that I wouldn't combine nutmeg with harmala alkaloids. Haramlas feel very 'clean' to me, whereas nutmeg feels pretty dirty. There's also a metabolic intersection with CYP2D6.

I think the way nutmeg acts on certain dopamine receptors is not something to be combined with the effects of harmalas. Psychological warpage is not unlikely and long-term effects remain essentially uncharted territory. I would not be surprised to find a link between nutmeg experimentation and dementia/Parkinsonism, for example.

Furthermore, because of nutmeg's cannabinoid effects there are risks of adverse effects in the immune system, including induction or worsening of autoimmune conditions.

All of the more severe-sounding effects refer to chronic use, rather than one-off experimentation. All the better that so many kids put themselves off nutmeg for life with their single large dose of the powdered spice, perhaps.
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RoundAbout
#19 Posted : 4/10/2020 9:58:31 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
I think the way nutmeg acts on certain dopamine receptors is not something to be combined with the effects of harmalas. Psychological warpage is not unlikely and long-term effects remain essentially uncharted territory. I would not be surprised to find a link between nutmeg experimentation and dementia/Parkinsonism, for example.


What sort of dosages are you referring to for chronic use... like dosages that would only be reached with intentional use of extracts, or dosages potentially reached by dietary intake? I assume ordinary dietary intake is not active or harmful?

I eat a little daily, amounting to a seed every couple months or something (I don't pay attention).
 
downwardsfromzero
#20 Posted : 4/11/2020 12:20:28 AM

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You infer correctly. I refer to higher doses than those used purely for flavouring purposes. There's roughly an order of magnitude difference between normal culinary amounts and a dose with a noticeable psychoactive effect. Nonetheless, I'd still advise taking a break from time to time. Also, check your nuts (nutmeg!!) carefully for signs of mould, particularly the yellow stuff.
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― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
 
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