Hello all,

For the first time ever, I have a few questions; the answers to which I have not been able to find in your amazingly resourceful forum and wiki.

I have recently rendered some Harmaline/Harmine Acetate crystals in the process of working through 'The Tao of Rue Extraction' (somewhat confusingly, it is referred to as Hcl (Hydrochloride) in the wiki but as Acetic acid is used, it would be the Acetate salt at this point - please correct me if I'm wrong).

Now the guide ends up, following multiple purification Manske's, performing final basification with sodium carbonate to render the freebase.

My questions are, what are the qualitative differences between the acetate and freebase?

Is the acetate useable, that is to say - orally consumable as is?

And is there a difference in stability between the two forms?

I understand that by basifying at the end then filtering, additional purification is occurring and that is clearly useful. In a related fashion, I also surmise that this step is ridding the end product of any remaining salt from the Manske processes. Am I thinking along the right lines?

I appreciate any information you may have,

Thankyou

Hello mrwhiteuk, welcome!

These Manske crystals are HCl because of all the salt used in the Manske. Cl is from the salt, H comes from the water. The water you decant contains most of the sodium, acetate, and still a lot of Cl and/or HCl ions, some OH ions, and probably still a few harm(al)ine ions.

You could make acetate for comparison, dissolve a small amount of harmala freebase in a minimal amount of vinegar and evaporate. I think it forms a goo that won't crystallize, similar to DMT acetate.

You can consume HCl or freebase orally, or acetate, no problem.
Some differences are:
- You need to adjust dosage to account for the added weight of the anion.
- the salts are nicely soluble in water, the freebase is a bit difficult to dissolve in anything. Ethanol works, but not so well. May be a factor if you want to drink it. You can dissolve freebase in orange juice, probably via conversion to citrate.
- I heard taste gets worse from freebase to HCl to acetate. Freebase doesn't taste good to me, but it's easily bearable with a bit of ginger tea to flush.

If you want to make changa, it is recommended to use freebase.

HCl is more stable, but freebase is good for years if stored properly. Most people here seem to prefer freebase.

^^ very good points there.

A drugHCL form is a drug-salt form, not like ingesting pure muriatic acid.
What Does HCl Mean on a Prescription Bottle? Understanding Salt Forms of Medication


When I take in freebase alkaloids then I add a firm dash of sodiumBIcarbonate in the water first and dissolve that. It raises pH and protects the stomach from irritation and discomforts. It helps to keep the freebase in that state and nullifies taste. One gets some burps though.

100mg of harmalaHCL form contains like roughly estimated 85 mg of freebase harmalas.

And 100mg of harmala acetate contains roughly 78mg of freebase harmalas, so the hydrochloride is "more efficient", one could say.

I've only ever used freebased Harmalas, as i like to encapsulate. But the times i've taken freebased Harmala powder and put it straight on my tongue, absolutely no taste at all. The times i've dissolved freebased Harmalas into Citric Acid water it tasted incredibly bitter. Haven't tried drinking Harmala Acetate though.

Thank you so much for your replies everyone.

Homo Trypens, your information is really elucidating for me - very useful clarifications indeed.

So those needle shaped crystals were actually the hydrochloride salt rather than acetate... fascinating.

Much appreciated

The 85 was from the theoretical calculator (attachment), in reality it probably is lower.