Unsure if this is the right area to post but for some reason I can only post in this section, why? I'm not a new member but I haven't posted for ages.


Do people really have ego death? If you believe yes, why? If no, why?

Is there really a human on this planet who has successfully dissolved ego? To have no ego would equal death because you would have no sense of self. Sure drugs can induce momentary dissociation but is it really an ego death? More a state of confusion, an altered sense of self. Even enlightened people have an ego, but they just have a different type of ego compared to every day people.

How can you perceive ego death without a sense of self? Impossible. Humans need a form of self identity to even really be considered living. People are all the same internally but everyone projects themselves differently.

Yes, I certainly believe people experience ego death!

Ego-death is just a phrase. Just words. The ego is something many people think is real. I don't feel it is real at all. It falls away so easily. All the memories, all the suffering, all the love, all gone. It happens in an instant, leaving only an awareness. I believe that this awareness permeates everything. It is in everything! Everything.. rocks, trees, planets, stars, moons and all sentient beings.

I feel it is all an illusion. Illusion of language and illusion in that those who really feed into this ego thing become trapped by it. They think it is real and it is not. You are not your memories. You are not your past. You are not your future. You are what you are in the here and now and no ego is require for that. I feel like psychedelics pulls back the curtain and exposes this façade for what it really is. It is not a death becasue you cannot kill what does not exist.

Enlightened is just another word. I feel those who are seen as enlightened simply do not identify with the ego to a large extent. They see this awareness, they see themselves in everything. I mean everyone likely has an idea of what they feel enlightenment is. I just see it as a waking up to the idea that it's all just an illusion.

Identity is something the ego does. You have a choice in what you identify with. You have a choice in how your so called ego will behave in this world. So yes, everyone projects themselves differently, this kind of goes without saying.

Do you know what ego death feels like? It feels like home. It feels like when you can sit with someone silently and just be ok with nothing being said at all. It feels like when you lose yourself in music. If feels like when you lose yourself in your art. It feels like when you lose yourself in your work. Lose yourself in sex. Lose yourself on psychedelics. It happens all the time if you pay attention enough. Many have called this 'the flow'. It doesn't take psychedelics to experience an ego death. It just takes a certain perception. It's all just language. You can play with language.

Meditation is an excellent tool enable to watch this ego thing in action. Try it.. watch that thing go bonkers when you sit still for a bit.

All in all, I think the ego is the cosmic joke. Hardy har har!!

The first time I smoked DMT, it was from a cut out piece of tinfoil, my friend had left the DMT in his pocket and it melted...I was completely unsure of how much I was actually taking at the time until I hit the pipe and the world unfolded instantaneously. The sense of speed was beyond anything I could describe properly in words. It felt like being ripped from your body and pulled by a thread toward the centre of the universe. Patterns became more patterns, they stretched infinitely in all directions, I had lost sense of body, sense of the world, all I could see was space, dancing chromatic flame entities and the roller coaster of symbols, patterns and sounds that made up everything.

Whether it was a sense of being overwhelmed or simply giving in, everything began to turn white, eventually hearing and thinking the last things, have I died? What about my mum and dad, what about my brother? I have so much here, "Let go".

It's very difficult to describe past this part of the trip, what I experienced can only be described as eternity. There was no sense of self, no sense of god, the universe. I couldn't remember anything previously but I couldn't think of anything in the future either, it was so brief but so long.

Yes. I believe in ego death. Though I also believe I was reborn into myself at the same moment. I don't think it's just ego death, it's a real death in a lot of ways, something has to die for the other thing to return. You can never go back to it.

When I can realize myself (I am ME), I definitely am connected to my ego. Once I become WE, then we are not longer connected to the ego. We are we and it is even impossible for us to imagine we might become I. We can further become IT, and again, there is no ego at all (of course).

If the ego is dissolved, there is no way to realize any personality. But that doesn't mean there is nothing able to observe.

I dont like the terms "ego" and "ego death" because of the baggage that comes along with them from Freudianism. But since these terms are so widely used in the psychedelic community it is unavoidable to deal with them it seems.

I like to think of ego death as the point in a psychedelic experience when one is so affected by the psychedelic that normal patterns of self-awareness and self-reflection become radically disrupted. For me this goes hand in hand with the cessation of language and internal dialogue. Basically, you are are "being", without reflecting on your being or really even being aware of it at all. You just are pure experience, in the moment, without any analysis or internal computations. It is liberating and deeply healing, a kind of deep, internal reset. Everyone should experience it at some point in life and I imagine that it must have significant benefits to the long term functioning of one's brain to do this from time to time.

First you have to acknowledge that everyone defines 'ego' a little differently, that we all come from different angles, schools of thought, concept structures, and experiences. With that out of the way..

I resonate with what has been said on the subject by Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta, and others. The overlap and similarities between what they talk about and my own experiences leads me to believe they've got the best grasp on the subject matter. That's just my opinion mind, and I'm not claiming enlightenment either.

"Ego is I-thought. True 'I' is the Self" - Ramana Maharshi

There is a big difference between the 'I-thought' and the various tendencies of the mind and bubblings of personality that I think a lot of people believe is their ego. Obviously we can't share subjective experiences and compare, but my impression is that a lot of 'ego-death' experience people have in particular under psychedelic influence is more the dissolution of one or more of these mental tendencies, various sub-egos if you will.

When there is a body and mind, to the outside observers of that individual they will perceive him to have an ego. They can't perceive what the subject of the body is experiencing however - an enlightened individual is not identified with the 'I-thought' of that body-mind. It's difficult to wrap your head around, and to put it into words (!), but when the I-thought/ego is dissolved then that (former) individual is now empty of identification and is no-where, everything and nothing.

Ego-death isn't perceived in the ordinary understanding. The ego is not an object that can be perceived and the true Self isn't either. It's all about the subject, the witnessing, awareness. Incredibly hard to convey in language, not even worth the bother - no one believes something of this magnitude is closer to themselves than anything else.

In short, yes. Not particularly uncommon when deep mystical experiencing. Psychedelic induced, or otherwise. Realms of "awareness", in which the sentience is devoid of ANY connection with person-hood, species-hood, selfness-hood or genesis-hood. Happens when AN awareness is present, yet totally devoid of connection to definition.

5-meo-DMT, n-n-DMT, are most capable of delivering this "experience" to the average humanoid. Other tryptaminics, phenethylaminics, or dissociatives can and will strip an ego of its connection with an individual "self". Do not doubt that this "experience" can be had if only appropriately "catalyzed".

The "mystic orgasm" is a physiologic reality of homonids, should the body/mind be so tickled. Call it what you choose, "ego-death", is not disinformational. The DMT Nexus is an ancient and REAL university. Avail yourself and quit the "Thomas"!


Peace

I believe, yes. Here's why:

the way I understand it, the ego is actually only a construct we make, and perceive as one thing, which it actually isn't. So it doesn't take THAT much to push that out of alignment. Even though I'd say that the sense of self (is what I mean by 'ego' is only temporarily suspended, actually. There is a lot of intense experiences that can trigger that.
I wouldn't call it true ego death, because most of the time, the ego will re-assemble after the experience.
I believe that this is what I experienced that on a pretty high dose of cyanescens. Words and thinking were so very far away in that state, it was like watching the earth from the sky and trying to see the cars driving down there. So far away, so difficult to relate to. I had the sense that it was possible no not come back at completely, and that, if something went wrong at that point, who knows what might happen? I could never take myself or life completely serious after that, again. And not in a bad way - now everything is like a gift to be appreciated, nothing has complete solidness anymore.
I certainly haven't come back completely from that experience, won't ever be the same again. But it was so very much worth the sacrifice, I gained so much from this. I sensed, though, that this can't be repeated indefinitely. Maybe some people can, I was sure that I personally was in dangerous territory.

So you might say that in a certain way, a part of my ego has died, some solid thing has been cracked and it's been leaky / semi-translucent ever since. I feel that I gained a glimpse at the divine, but this didn't come free of charge. Especially since I was experimenting on my own, without a plan or a guide. So, part of my ego has died there, even though enough has been re-assembled to allow me functioning normally.

I have no idea if this makes any sense - this is the best I can do to describe it

Good question.


I would say yes. Every time someone is in a deep slumber there is ego death.

When one is unconscious there is no awareness because there is no ego. When one is conscious there is awareness and therefore an ego. Having said that, no one really knows what consciousness is. But if it is simply the act of awareness then it cannot exist without there being an ego to perceive it. Consciousness and ego are one and the same thing.
I think that the perceived ego death during such experiences as taking psychedelics are the cumulative shutdowns of our cognitive functions. But there is still someone there to not really understand what the hell they are experiencing.

Maybe that is one of the reasons as to why a lot of people enjoy a good nights sleep. Because the death of the ego is an important part of replenishing our vital energies in order to stay healthy. And i think that the ego death that is achieved in parts of the sleep cycle can prepare us for the eventuality of death. Death will be like a really long nap. It will be great!

I think the error in your assessment is based on the presumption that the body-mind exists prior to consciousness arising in that body-mind, when in fact it may be the other way around. We all run on the presumption that the body-mind arises first and our scientific paradigm reinforces that belief, and on the surface it appears valid enough at least.

People have been unconscious in operations or even clinically dead yet they have perceived information about their surroundings or further afield. If there is no awareness in unconsciousness then that should not be possible.

Then perhaps these people were not fully unconscious. But i do agree that my assessment is possibly flawed. And it gives me no great pleasure in coming to some of my conclusions about consciousness. If we are going on the assumption that consciousness means awareness, are you saying that we are aware before we have a body?
Also what would be your definition of consciousness?

Maybe rather than awareness emerging from the body-mind, awareness refracts into the body - the body has us as opposed to us having a body. The concept of time and space arising out of the misidentifying with this body-mind; what refracted into the body-mind is beyond time and space.[/QUOTE]



I can't put succinctly myself. I like this quote from Nisargadatta,

"Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginning-less, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something."

And therein lies the origin of misunderstanding.
We all are using words in the context that we, as individuals (egos), bring to the moment.
When I say the word "house", everyone will have a very specific image in their minds, that will differ in countless details to the image that the next person will have in his/her mind. Whatever image we have in our mind is a construct that is entirely dependent on the experiences and history of each individual. And this image is only the base-image of the fluid concept of "house", which itself can be morphed and adjusted to other qualifying words...such as "small" or "old".

What we share in our minds, in order to communicate, is a generalized experience that we encounter in the world, which we then label with a name. Like "house", which we generally experience as a man-made structure where people live.

But even in this short and innocent sentence, meanings can diverge in broad ways. Because we also have different images in our minds, of what "man-made" means, and what "people" means, and what "live" means... And so, in all of our communication with other individuals, we will always interpret the words according to our own meanings, our own images, and will always end up with a very biased and self-centered interpretation of what that other individual was trying to convey.

And in a sense, all of that internal structure that we so desperately rely on to make sense, of what we experience, and what other people are saying to us, could be labeled as "ego".
But then, when this interpretation of the word "ego" is absent, as in "ego death", how could we relate to anything that we are experiencing in that moment? If we have no point of reference, to any of our emotions, our senses and our thoughts, are we then still in a conscious state of mine, or in fact an un-conscious one?

Needless to say, I find the term "ego-death" very problematic, because for one, I don't believe that any part of us actually dies on DMT, even a little. And second, that whatever we leave behind as we "lift off" into "hyperspace", thankfully returns to us, when we re-enter our terrestrial atmosphere and our familiar and comfortable "egos" and bodies.

What I find more interesting than what we "escape from", is what we "return with".
What are the elements of these experiences, that are so powerful, that we sometimes change our perception and our attitude about things, and people, and the world we live in, in fundamental ways? What is is that makes these "trips" such extraordinary experiences that sometimes change the way we live our lives, and that many of us will remember for the rest of our lives, in vivid detail?

The scientific paradigm is quite reliable and also flexible. It relies on evidence whereas the belief that awareness refracts into the body is just that.... a belief. If you are right i believe that the current scientific paradigm would, in time help to prove you right and me wrong. In this case i would not have a problem in being proved wrong.



Yeah. Know the feeling.



So, if i am understanding the above passage correctly, awareness is primary to consciousness. And when they are saying that "Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface" IF i am understanding what they are trying to get at, it tallies with another definition of mine for what consciousness is. Which would simply be information reacting off of itself. Which would blow my previous definition out of the water as when one is asleep and "unconscious" one's body is still doing stuff. Like digesting the meal that was eaten the night before for example. This definition also tallies with everything being conscious eg: rocks react to weather erosion etc. Probably a boring theory but it backs up the idea of universal consciousness.



As i said before that no one really knows what consciousness is, so the above comment maybe true.
Meanings of words such as "manmade" and "live" may subjectively diverge, but there is generally a reliable conscensus as to what they mean. Whereas the meaning of the word consciousness can vary from the standard "being aware of something" to there possibly being some kind consciousness field that gives rise to what we experience as reality. It is a bit like people having subjective views on what god is. Maybe consciousness god and the ego are all inextricably linked. Which would explain why some religious, spiritual or atheistic people get angry when their beliefs are put in doubt. Their ego based paradigms have been challenged and some people can't handle that.



I agree. I think that we forget stuff about ourselves while being in a state of hyper-suggestability combined with a radically altered perception.

I've watched this video yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSOl62memg (Using 5-MeO-DMT To Become Enlightened - Interview With Martin Ball)

I don't know if Martin is as credible as he sounds, but it's an interesting interview and they discuss subject of ego death and enlightement.
Thought it might interest participants of this thread as well.

Thanks for posting the link to that video. I'm going to check it out later today. I love listening to interesting discussions and podcasts (makes work go by much faster).

One of the things that I hear a lot is the belief that there is some kind of correlation between ego death experiences and achieving enlightenment. But what does enlightenment even mean? I see "ego death" as a repeatable brain experience that occurs at higher doses of psychedelics. You take enough psilocybin or lsd or etc. and your brain is affected to the point that the normal ego functions of the brain are disrupted. It is a simple cause and effect relationship. Sure, you can resist it to some extent at lower levels but if you take high enough doses your brain just will not be able to operate in a normal enough manner to preserve ego awareness.

I think it would be a big mistake to assume that such experiences mean that one is now enlightened. There are plenty of immature, selfish, etc. sort of people who have had strong trips. And personal growth is not a linear path. We go forward and backward, forward and backward.... and on and on. Psychedelics can be powerful tools in personal development, or they cannot, all depending on how one approaches them and on many other factors.

I feel awfully connected to your story...

I had a very, very similar exp my last time using dmt a few weeks ago...

the moment I lay back I disintegrated into a black hole and lost all sense of myself and who I was... I was panicking and literally terrified. I had no sense or memory of who i was and it felt like about 2 to 300 years had past in a matter of 15 min. I had thoughts of "am I dying" "will I ever go back to normal" I had one very close thought of my actual self and life... I remembered my 4 year old daughter and just wished I was going to see her again.. at that point the 1000000 mile an hour reality unfolding hyperspace calmed down a bit and I finally was able to enjoy it slightly before coming back to reality I cried for 15 min after happy to be alive and terrified at the same time.....

Well this is exactly what they discuss in the video

Enlightenment per my understanding is realization that our reality is nondualistic and that ego is just a dualistic construct and thus is illusory, which in turn leads to realization of oneness with god/universe/infinity.
It can he temporary (during or for some time after psychedelic experience) or permanent.

Martin asserts that he is liberated (I believe in the same meaning as enlightened) and is able to slip in and out of his ego at will. He menions he puts ego on for social interaction and can slip again into nondualistic mode and feel the oneness and connectedness at will.

I was very interested by his explanation how 5meo affects exactly the neurotransmitters which are considered being responsible for ego latching to your higher self. So 5meo floods these receptors and your true self is able to perceive itself without illusion of ego.

Thank you for this explanation!!!

I'm able to integrate my last exp much better using that perspective!

I love this forum, so many beautiful and intelligent souls

The scientific paradigm as it stands is far too rigid and in its infancy to approach what we're talking about here. It is material studying material. We're talking about something which highly subjective by nature and beyond the material. What is applicable is the scientific method in the context of an individual; investigation, experimentation and duplication of results. Any person of average intelligence can pursue a subjective line of inquiry and reach a spiritual realization; the very act of replicating what others say is possible is proof itself, is scientific. The conclusion (spiritual realization) may go completely against the prevailing scientific paradigm however, but that is not important at all - in short, who really cares? Do you really require someone else to tell you how things are?