This is all true and I don't disagree with the notion of learning to shift your balance around, of which dabbling with psychedelics is one option, but the repeated use of them is my gripe really. If that's what a person wants to do fair enough, but at least be honest about it and leave out the flowery concepts and justifications - using language to mask intent.

I think this is where the "hang up the phone" notion comes in. Psychedelics can give a person a new perspective and shift their balance off centre a bit, and I think that's a pretty universal experience. What DMT clarified for me personally and where it contributed to me "hanging up" was that the balance was shifted enough, quickly enough, that I finally got a look at "me" during the experiences, something other psychedelics had done but in a much more subtle way and left me doubting.



What if perfection is, right now? If you never left it? The relative world as you said is a never ending spiral.. perfection there is unattainable by definition, and so logically with us in the material world too.

I don't know. I just think there's a very fine line between using psychedelics to gain the insights and using them for gratification masked as seeking.

Yeah I think maybe smoked dmt isn't like that, or at the least integration times are longer.



Oh hi, I'm here did you need me for anything?

Fran you a funny guy!!!
Making me laugh here!

No, self-development is not just about resolving dark sides of our shadow. It is about education, opening our mind, connecting with oneness or whatever else is needed. When we accept our higher self, when we let it to speak and we follow what is adviced, then we accept the good and the bad as well. We are able to understand the worst experiences because we are able to overcome how bad these lesons are and we are able to see and integrate the message.

If the teacher tells me to take a 5 year break, I do. He knows much better than me what I need and I found insisting on my desires is not the way to go. Not with these tools.



I don't have an idea I know many people are using shrooms, dmt or mescaline. But how many of them are really utilizing their potential? I don't believe there are many...

I believe Ayahuasca makes me more intelligent, because it helps me connect distant ideas, perhaps distant areas of the brain, and "neurons that fire together, wire together." And you can never be too intelligent
Also, it inspired me to study music and is helping me with it.

That said, when I started drinking, my experiences revolved around me -- resolving dark sides of my shadow, then awakening to something greater, beyond the materialist worldview I had adopted. Now I'm the leader of an Ayahuasca community and my work with this medicine is more about others, guiding them through their process of awakening. It's a whole new universe and I don't see an end to this increasingly more interesting walk.


Some of the healthiest (especially psychologically) and most spiritually evolved people I know are walkers of the Ayahuasca path.

There's something about people that have experienced the other, it's hard to qualify and almost intangible but I agree whole-heartedly. They have a light in their eye, or a certain grin, and a perspective that can be recognized almost immediately. Call it an aura, or presence even, but it's something I've definitely noticed over the years.

Hang up the phone due a message?
Is it really only about a message, a mental/psychological prize to receive then case closed?

To me entheogens grease some "gears" and gears run dry after a while. I see people who never grease their neural gears unless with some alcohol but that is a darn de-greaser and it shows.
I concur that greasing gears overly doesn't pay off at all, if 'the message' was like that then I agree with that idea. Imho there is an optimum, like many intakes like food, vitamins, minerals,....., one needs some but overkill doesn't pay or works backwards. Stop taking them leaves you underfed after a while, I see many people entheogenic wise underfed, too bad.

The stimulation of the neurological system can hardly be compressed as a thought/insight/message. Augmenting the neural conductivity/plasticity is something no phone can fully reflect as a message imho.
Narrowing down entheogens as just message generators, misses out on the impact entheogens have hardware wise. I consider messages and visuals equally potentially transient, not the all end game.

I think you have a hypothesis that may be true in some cases but you seem to generalize it to all regular users: repeated use of psychedelics is based on some kind of negative self-indulgence and not on some genuine desire for self-development and knowledge about oneself and the universe, or healing in any of the many possible levels.

There is plenty of research showing for example regular users of ayahuasca show a lot of positive cognitive/emotional/social benefits. There is plenty of evidence showing ayahuasca repeated use can have pharmacological anti-depressant effects with serotonin platelet transporters increasing. If you take it once or twice it will not have the same positive effects. Which isn't to say you should take more, but all I'm saying is that for the people that do decide to take more, it won't necessarily be a bad thing or excused by justifications that are masking something behind, etc. They may honestly be looking for self-development, benefiting medicinally/spiritually from it, and be trying to improve any flaws they may have and reassess their ego's illusions and self-indulgences along the way.

Now, if you personally aren't one of those people and found that for you, regular/extended psychedelic use was more negative than positive, then all the power to you, I wish you the best in your path. Just remember not to judge others based on your own experience, because it might very well not be representative of others or generalizable.



I don't think those things are mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd say I totally agree with you, and at the same time, I think perfection is never attainable... And in this seeming contradiction we live our lives in this mysterious existence, each one trying to make sense of the stimulus we receive. As long as you aren't doing something bad to others, who am I to say your path is wrong or masking something negative or whatever ? I honestly hope you have truely found the past path for you and will continually adjust as to have the best path ever for your soul

It seemed to me from the start the Hang Up The Phone metaphore is not really for users like us, and if I understand correctly Alan Watts smoked DMT only once, so it would make sense that he say that.

I really dont get that. If I had smoked DMT just once or twice I would know nothing about it, I would have missed all the best most unforgetable trips, I would not know the depth of it, the extense and scope. It seems to me the first dose or two you realize "Oh my god, the implications of this!" And that is just the start. And that when you stop when you think youve sort of seen what its capable, what its all about; an enigma wraped in an enigma wraped in a pardox!

In any case this whole persuit, much like the persuit of art and education, is based on curiosity and other, deeper and intangible things which are hard to put a word on.

Didn’t read The whole post but since y’all are talking bout Allen wats y’all might enjoy this. I found it pretty interesting. https://youtu.be/tWcE8yWkynE

I feel like the hang up the phone thing only applies to phone calls with my mother. When it come to psychedelics, particularly dmt, I think of it more as a walkie talkie to your inner god. And he’s always listening, ready to respond, and just a click of a button away.

I’m always changing, as are my questions and concerns. My higher self has insight on everything that’s happened to me and everything that has yet to happen me. It’s an open conversation that won’t end until I die and am one with source once again.

It is a generalisation for sure, and I won't deny that I do think it is a valid one. That is not to say one can't have the sincere desire for healing or self-improvement at the same time, indeed I think for a lot of people that is the case. However, I think it operates in tandem with this other competing hedonistic desire for titillation and mesmerising effects, and does so in a way that the user may not be fully conscious of in terms of mental processes - does the user do psychedelics, or do psychedelics do the user? There may be external influences too, prompting the user to use substances again; entities taking energy for example.. a potential possibility, one that can't be proven though.



Wouldn't doubt research says those things, though I'm sure you could find research that says the exact opposite too. I would argue though that people don't need to try patching up apparent 'flaws' in their ego though, that it is a zero sum game that ultimately leads nowhere because in the end the ego itself is the root cause of all our suffering. You could make yourself more adjustable to society for sure if that's what you wish, nothing wrong with that at all, but if we're talking as psychonaut explorers here I would imagine we would want to dig a little deeper, philosophically speaking - is it even necessary for one to adjust to (a sick) society?

I think what a lot of people really need is self-assurance, not self-development. Inner belief and conviction. I firmly believe the question, the seeker, the answer, it's all inside ourselves in the silent space. Psychedelics can definitely make people aware of this, absolutely. But it I think psychedelics become a distraction inevitably, like a lot of things in life do (TV, games, culture etc).. the initial inspiration and message gets lost - hang up the phone!



It's not from a position of judgement, not at all. So long as they are not promoting this stuff to children or those who it may cause harm too, though with DMT I think extra caution is necessary in that regard. It's more from a health and compassion standpoint, that they have what they need already and don't know it yet.



Perfection in our relative world, definitely not, for everything is spontaneously emerging and forever changing. Perfection beyond the relative? I think we are that. As for paths, right or wrong doesn't figure into it except perhaps in a legal sense, but balls to that I think we should all watch out for each other though and help pass on what we've found. It's no race up the mountain in the end.

Hi xss27, if an unknown portion of the sessions indeed addresses hedonistic tendencies, even when they are not recognized as such, what is actually your problem with that? Are you suggesting people should do only things on the condition of fully grasping first every possible psychologically analysis? That's impossible and you can't live up to that preconditioning yourself when looking at all things in life, be fair and not just making an exception for spice. Imho we are all BOUND to act in partial knowledge by default about everything. I fail to see the argument.

This thread is about stopping spice, is that really your suggestion when fragments of hedonism become detected? I'm puzzled about your relationship with (partial) hedonism, it looks problematic? I consider the hedonistic quenching quite essential in human life for that matter, be that in a safe and sound context. To me it's no waste of whatever, only holy men (or those thinking they are) skip that part?

You stimulate us to investigate self-misleading, that is great.
Yet I invite you consecutive if you have not been misleading yourself namely calling out on hedonism as an excuse to mask something else, something of which you are in denial of. Sort of been-there-done-that as a parachuting excuse to not go deeper? I mean deeper yet not in particular to find truth X or Y, but to live the richness many people do seem to find. I cannot write exactly what it is to me, but it is, it changes my life for the better, way better. Be invited.

If something comes into your awareness through psychedelic use then the work begins back when you're sober, not when you're still under the influence IMO. I don't consider hedonistic quenching, if you mean indulging that is, to be essential in human life.. I think that's a rationalisation stemming from personal desire for hedonism, though at the deepest level it's not even the person saying that - our basic programming is for health and survival, indulging in anything too much goes contrary to that programming, and only one 'voice' can be correct.



I'm not interested in psychedelics any more, not since I've had more powerful experiences through meditation. My DMT experiences were life changing, very beautiful, extremely profound, and I'm glad I experienced it and wouldn't have had it any other way. They paved the way for the next chapter in my life, it was necessary. It became very clear from (meditation) experience and then through literature that it is a distraction from something more important in my own journey though, that's all. I could spend years ruminating over past traumas trying to find resolution using psychedelics, psychotherapy or whatever, trying to polish the sharp edges of my personality and reactions to daily perceptions.. but to what end? What's the point? I'm not interested in being adaptable to a world I will inevitably be forced to leave, maybe sooner than one anticipates even. What is more important to me is Truth and not my self.

If DMT or psychedelics help you that's great. All I would say is just don't overdo it, you know? At the end of the day DMT is bloody powerful stuff, let's not delude ourselves on that one. Using it sparingly keeps the odds in ones favour I feel.

I think we all agree on not overdoing.

More power to you by stop using and congrats following your intuition, but meanwhile you are filling in a lot of dots for other people, a bit much imho.
I hope you find the truth you're after but I fear that's another mirage hunt, I wish you good luck with that.
That we don't agree on several points, that's ok I guess.

And where is OP, disappeared?

OP is long gone xD

xss27 when I read you it seems like your use of psychedelics is centered around self improvement. While there is a self improvment aspect to it, in my use I dont consider it the central parr of use, hence why I dont consider it a distraction, like ever. I can see how smoking weed everyday is a distraction, but I dont see how any dmt trip can be a distraction. A distraction from what?
Is reading a book a distraction?
Yes and No, right? Completley depends on the individual and if they are practicing escapism.

To me dmt is about seeing and feeling the impossible, discovering something about us and the universe we forgot. A bed is for sleeping on. A kitchen for cooking. Everything has a purpose. I supose thats where we digress maybe, we see different purposes for the use of DMT?

Also be careful about literature and what most people say of drugs, as many make assumptions that their experiences in weed, cocaine, opium, etc, apply to all drugs. So they will say witj absolute firmness that drugs are distractions, completley unaware that DMT is not a drug. At least I dont think it is.

As to these objections to hedonism, huh? Animals that mate for life are simply not attracted to or aroused by other potential mates. Can any human being honestly say the same? I have a very hard time believing that monogamy is inherent to our species, and in fact if you really dig into human sexuality, there's a wealth of information that suggests that we are hedonistic by default. Women's ability to achieve multiple orgasms, the shape of the male organ is thought to be designed for excavation of the 'leavings' of other males, the production of 'killer sperm', the arousal caused by witnessing the sex act... it goes on and on and I will spare you the details.
It's my opinion entirely, but I think that monogamy is a social norm that is/was imposed upon us by church and state, and in my mind, the reason being is that if I have twenty wives, and subsequently thirty or forty children, then pretty soon I'm a pretty influential person in my village and this is absolutely a political threat to the establishment. But the OP's objection to hedonistic lifestyles in the context of psychedelic usage is to me kind of ridiculous. Not to mention, most of the swingers my wife and I've known (plenty), are drinkers, frankly.

Self-discovery (nothing needs improving as such), but yeah, that's what I consider the main impetus for using psychedelics should be in an individual and not for recreation or escapism. Again not that there's anything wrong with those pursuits as such, though you could argue that potentially you're putting family and friends at risk of your having to take care of a broken person, I just think from a health stand point that continual or excessive use only increases the statistical chances of something going awry in an individual that's all. It just doesn't seem wise in the total scheme of things.



No I totally get that. That very deep nostalgic feeling I get when I remember my DMT experiences of the impossible are something I treasure, they motivate me to keep plugging on in the face of despair. Definitely worth having. But would those nostalgic memories lose their potency and majesty if you kept repeating the experience? Don't you see a potential burn-out scenario where you unravel too much of the mystery so to speak? If you kept on trekking up to the top of a great mountain to get that peak experience (ah-ha) eventually the experience uses itself up.. I mean it's still great, but having that one potent memory as opposed to several dozen..?



It was spiritual literature rather than psychedelic related literature I was referring to, which in itself does occasionally directly mention substance use but is more about actual perceptions themselves being unreal, being distractions, all just pictures on the screen. It says the same thing about great meditative experiences, cosmic consciousness for example, and not getting hung up on the beauty of those experiences because ultimately it's just more of the same.

@Twitchy: The sex topic is a thing in itself. I actually agree with the thrust of your argument but not defining that behaviour as hedonistic though.. not unless we're putting the blame on nature

I would state a few issues. Amongst long time users of DMT (as well as other psychedelics) there is a frequent reporting of the “endless rabbit hole” effect; which is to say that when seeking some “answer” they find that they are only provided with more questions and the further they go down that path, the more they feel like they are chasing something they will never actually be able to catch.

A lot of comments here suggest a concern about regular use being indicative of an abusive relationship with the substance. I think there is a widespread belief within the community that dmt shouldn’t be used “recreationally” and that it deserves more respect. Certainly orally active ayahuasca is very hard to imagine as being used “recreationally” (although I would point out that people do some strange things for “fun” like running marathon distances), smoked dmt is a very different beast though and it is not implausible for that an unhealthy relationship with the substance could be formed.

As I stated previously the eleusinian mystery was a once in a lifetime event for participants. Perhaps the belief was that to see beyond the veil once was enough and that to make our way through this life present in this world is more important than constantly returning to the other side, which might detract from full engagement with this life (it is likely that they believed regular submersion through psychedelics would make the experience become “mundane”)

A very interesting take on all this is the archaic Jewish psychedelic tradition. Not only was it reserved for initiates of the priesthood, who would get to undertake it was decided by the drawing of lots - suggesting that there was a need to mitigate the desire to participate.

While it’s fully right to consider dmt (and other psychedelics) both medicinal and spiritual, I think it’s important to be mindful that we humans are capable of turning ANYTHING into an unhealthy addiction.

I'm actually overwhelmed by all these answers ... didn't expected this, eventhough I was reading in this forum for some time..

thank you very much