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Bouncing Bear raided Options
 
Entropymancer
#321 Posted : 4/7/2010 5:50:07 PM

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Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
soulfood
#322 Posted : 4/7/2010 5:53:18 PM

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I'd be interested in hearing why when more info is out.
 
amor_fati
#323 Posted : 4/7/2010 5:53:59 PM

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Incredible news! But we're not completely out of the woods, yet. Every so often, something like this raid may happen to jog us out of stagnation, and we need to seize on that.
 
Touche Guevara
#324 Posted : 4/7/2010 7:16:58 PM
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Frustrating that in this world of famous people Twittering whenever they take a leak, we aren't getting updates on this breaking news.

Understandable though. I'd be celebrating, too.

Edit: Looks like BBB has Pedro, P. Torch and Achuma for sale again. They must be confident that this is for real.
 
#325 Posted : 4/7/2010 10:50:53 PM
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Very good news. Looking forward to hear any further developments in the coming days/weeks.
 
joebono
#326 Posted : 4/8/2010 12:55:44 AM

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Yes, this is great news. They still might be able to screw him over in the civil court if he tries to get his money and plants back, but at least it seems there will be no criminal charges.
 
lyserge
#327 Posted : 4/8/2010 1:12:44 AM

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Very good news, that's surprising, because every interaction I had with them I had the underlying feeling that they were asking to get fucked. He got lucky, great news that there's no trial. The government may be looking for more cases like this to set clearer precedents.
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memo
#328 Posted : 4/8/2010 2:26:03 AM

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I'm hoping that they just worried that they were trampling on the religious rights of anyone who might truly claim his religion as Shamanic and that the potential for weakening their ability to persecute people of this religious persuasion was a real possibility. I thank Jon for standing up for all of us otherwise law abiding people who are just following their true beliefs. I can't change what I truly believe just to conform to their prejudice. I currently have to hide my religious persuasion to protect my family and dependents from persecution from the government of the United States of America and their cronies around the world.
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Touche Guevara
#329 Posted : 4/8/2010 2:45:33 AM
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memo wrote:
I'm hoping that they just worried that they were trampling on the religious rights of anyone who might truly claim his religion as Shamanic and that the potential for weakening their ability to persecute people of this religious persuasion was a real possibility. I thank Jon for standing up for all of us otherwise law abiding people who are just following their true beliefs. I can't change what I truly believe just to conform to their prejudice. I currently have to hide my religious persuasion to protect my family and dependents from persecution from the government of the United States of America and their cronies around the world.


I seriously doubt that the spiritual rights of entheogen users was even a consideration in dropping these charges.

Jon has done a lot to spread wonderful ethnobotanicals, but his business practices (read:GREED) put the entire community at risk and brought a lot of unwanted public attention.
 
Entropymancer
#330 Posted : 4/8/2010 2:59:29 AM

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Memo, that would make no sense. If you claim the religious right to use a scheduled material, you have to either petition the DEA or sue the state for the right. Furthermore, one of the requirements for religious protection using scheduled materials is that there is no risk of diversion (ie for Jon to have this right, there must be no risk that anyone else could get any of his sacramental plants or plant materials)... the fact that he sold them eliminates ANY chance of a religious defense holding any water.

Whatever the reason the charges were [dropped or dismissed, whichever the case may be], it wasn't based on any fear of trampling on religious freedoms.
 
Entropymancer
#331 Posted : 4/8/2010 3:51:25 AM

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One point I saw raised on another forum, and I think it's a good one: One possible reason the charges were dropped could be that the gov't was afraid of the legal consequences of a potential outcome. It's entirely possible that a court could rule that "any material containing any amount" is too vague to be constitutional (it makes pet shops and animal shelters just as illegal as ethno vendors if the proprietors happen to be aware that mice contain DMT, among many other inane examples). It's entirely possible that the charges were dropped because the government didn't want to risk the possibility of the CSA being declared unconstitutional.
 
memo
#332 Posted : 4/8/2010 4:26:56 AM

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Entropymancer wrote:
If you claim the religious right to use a scheduled material, you have to either petition the DEA or sue the state for the right.
I bet there was a similar procedure for Jews in Nazi Germany. Even though I know this is my inalienable right I know how far ( or should I say how much time) petitioning the DEA would get me. I do believe that there have been a lot of positive outcomes by the use of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and I do believe that this is one example where it should be used to protect people from persecution for exercising their inalienable religious rights. I'm not saying that this was a factor in this case what I am saying is that it should have been a factor in this case.
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69ron
#333 Posted : 4/8/2010 7:57:35 AM

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Although it looked bad from the start, my gut feeling was always that somehow the charges would be dropped.

This is good news, partially. It would have been nicer if they won in court though. I think they would have. To this day no court in the USA has convicted anyone of selling Trichocereus cacti, morning glory seeds, etc. Many cases have been brought to court, but they all ended with the charges being dropped, and now we can add the BBB case to that list.
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88
#334 Posted : 4/8/2010 8:43:58 AM

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Does anyone know if they have had their confiscated goods and properties returned? It seemed from initial reports that one purpose of the raid was to financially ruin BBB, and effectively put them out of business.
"at journey's end, we must begin again"
 
burnt
#335 Posted : 4/8/2010 9:13:00 AM

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Awesome news that the charges are being dropped. Hahahha kansas law enforcement. Bunch of losers.
 
Dimitrius
#336 Posted : 4/8/2010 9:24:10 AM

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Weeeee!

Where are the dancing pink elephants when you need them?

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Crystalito
#337 Posted : 4/8/2010 11:00:38 AM
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Well, i hope two things:

1)That BBB change their bussiness practices abit,maybe remembering the older days where vendors where not "superstarts/demigods of aggresive marketing"

2)That it will take more than one month after the "storm" for people in forums to forget that planting the plants are a great way to be selfsufficient and that making moves toward liberties in such matters is a good move.I hope the coalition does not lose its steam.

Its rather characteristic of human nature needing "periodical scares" or "the presence of an enemy in the background" to keep up putting in practice some good ideas that we all could benefit from...Playing clever even without the presence of a boogeyman should be an ideal Laughing
 
amor_fati
#338 Posted : 4/8/2010 2:45:25 PM

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69ron wrote:
This is good news, partially. It would have been nicer if they won in court though. I think they would have.


I think so too, but it may better to face this on our own terms, rather than being pressured into it by the immanent threat of legal consequence.

In any case, this is a good sign: That even a state like Kansas isn't confident enough in its own laws to take down one of the biggest targets in the community bodes very well for the future.
 
OpeningPandorasBox
#339 Posted : 4/10/2010 4:53:44 PM

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I always wonder how this current generation will compare to the next. The next generation seems more open but again they are still young. One can only hope and try to spread knowledge.
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TheGuy
#340 Posted : 4/11/2010 2:25:51 PM
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88 wrote:
Does anyone know if they have had their confiscated goods and properties returned? It seemed from initial reports that one purpose of the raid was to financially ruin BBB, and effectively put them out of business.



They have not returned any products, property or money.
They still have his son's savings account - all $1600.00.
They still have his lawnmower of all things.
In fact, if he were to put any money into the bank, they would seize it.

He is still faced with the unconstitutional $900,000 drug tax.

It makes one wonder what kind of society is it that can levy a nearly million $ drug tax on someone who is not actually charged with selling any drugs.

Jon will by filing a lawsuit next week against the state of Kansas to get his money back.
 
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