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Butane extraction Options
 
delafonze19
#1 Posted : 1/7/2008 7:29:25 PM
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So I have these freind who have an airtight device they use to extract honey oil from pot ussing butane. I was wondering if the same device and woslvent could be used to pull spice. Any ideas on this topic?
 

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EZ4U2Shoot
#2 Posted : 1/7/2008 7:45:50 PM

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From what I understand (which isn't a lot) from previous information on this subject is No, Not really, Not exactly, but possibly kinda. As I understand it: (Someone please correct my inaccuracies) Initially the DMT is in a form that would not be soluble in butane. After the powdered root material is basified it is then extracted (usually) with naptha. That being the case, and knowing that naptha has been used for making hash, similarly as butane has, then I would suspect that the butane might pull some out but because of polarities it certanly wouldnt pull everything out. In fact, as far as using butane to for making honey oil, even that is not a very efficient way of extracting the canabanoids out, it is just extremely easy and convienent. From personal experience w/ making honey, the best way is you have to create a on/off release valve in order to trap enough butane to keep it sitting in the green for several minutes before letting it out. Otherwise, you will use a shite load of butane and still never get all the good stuff out.
 
delafonze19
#3 Posted : 1/7/2008 10:47:40 PM
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I am not quite sure of the state the spice is in when in plant form. If you do straight to base you add lye to freebse it. If you do water extract first you add vinegar to make an acetate base. So it would seem in the plant it isn't quite a salt or a freebase. The device I have seen has a valve so it would be able to saturate the MHRB for any amount of time before release. Easy of use and speed are the goal here. I would also believe it to have very little yellow goo fat crap because of the low temps being used. i suppose one could add a little water nad lye to make like a paste with a very high pH before the butane extraction but now we are getting away from the fast and easy
 
EZ4U2Shoot
#4 Posted : 1/8/2008 1:35:24 AM

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[quote:e28f2d4422="delafonze19"]I am not quite sure of the state the spice is in when in plant form. If you do straight to base you add lye to freebse it. If you do water extract first you add vinegar to make an acetate base. So it would seem in the plant it isn't quite a salt or a freebase. The device I have seen has a valve so it would be able to saturate the MHRB for any amount of time before release. Easy of use and speed are the goal here. I would also believe it to have very little yellow goo fat crap because of the low temps being used. i suppose one could add a little water nad lye to make like a paste with a very high pH before the butane extraction but now we are getting away from the fast and easy[/quote:e28f2d4422] I don't know for sure, but there is one thing I would take into account. The butane extraction is good for drawing oils out of a plant without drawing chlorophil out. However, with spice, you want crystals, not the oils. I think the butane might work well at defatting, but since there is so little oils in MHRB it seems the concesensus is that it isn't required. On the other hand, if you are extracting from something like Reed Canary Grass, then it might be able to be used to flush the oils out of the grass and make the defatting process real easy. In fact, I would say it is according to just how much oils butane will pull out, you might be able to flush it with butane and then just follow a straight to base tek from that step on. I don't know because I haven't tried it. Swim says he has a lot of RCG growing around the ponds and lakes where he lives but will need to wait for the season to come back around to collect it. EDIT: Again, like I said, Swim has had lots of experience extracting from the sweat leaf but has not yet extracted from root bark. Swim has absolutely no doubt he can do it because the teks arent really any more complicated than good ole fashioned brown hash. What I would suggest is to just read and reread a few different extraction teks and hit the forums until you are comfortable with the idea. From what I gather, it seems the most dangerous part isn't the naptha. It's when you put the lye in water. Well, unless you are stupid and try to do it while you are smoking a cig or if you make it near a gas furnace with a pilot light. If you still don't feel confident you can do it then consider this: You pump gasoline in your car. You've probably filled a lawn mower with gas. You've probably used lye or crystal drano to get clogs out of a sink or drain. Given those things there, you've pretty much already worked w/ equally or more dangerous materials anyway.
 
delafonze19
#5 Posted : 1/8/2008 1:50:40 AM
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I have been around the block a few times. And seen alot along the way. I am looking to improve a method rather than avoid one already in use. I have read of at least three reports stating it does work, but not talked to the people who posted them. I suppose I could just get a freind to give it a shot with a small amount. I was just hoping to hear from someone who has already seen it done.
 
El Ka Bong
#6 Posted : 1/8/2008 5:20:17 AM

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... ummm, keep reading - butane is a [b:96fe943fff]gas[/b:96fe943fff] at room temp, and it blows up real good ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butane And so I would say no - THC extraction has nothing to do with acid-base extraction of alkaloids from plants. And hash making has nothing to do with extracting alkaloids present in amounts as low as <1% - hash isn't an extract. THC is not technically an 'alkaloid', as it lacks a base (amine group, -NH2). In fact there is no nitrogen at all in THC, just C, H and O, and alkaloids by definition have an amine in their structure. The -NH2 group on alkaloids like dmt, allows you to separate the alkaloids out when you make the molecule charged. This happens in the first steps of Marsofold's Tek - by adding acid to make the dmt-NH2 into dmt-NH3(+), and thereby soluble in water. When a dmt-extraction tek calls for lye to basify, you make -NH3(+) become -NH2 again (with no charge, + or -), and so dmt is insoluble at basified pH (11.5). Solvents called for in dmt extraction teks are the only ones to use as they have chemical properties that preferentially dissolve (ie 'pull out'Pleased dmt-freebase over other basified alkaloids. Temperatures are also very important - warmer temps (40 - 55 C)speeds up extraction and solubilization of dmt (one hour at 55 deg C). Room temp extractions are just as effective if left for 8 hours - you still get all the dmt out. Read-up some more, and then learn a tek by practicing with the proper solvents. I recommend the Acid-base method by Marsofold, but there are other 'lazy', lye-eater, STB teks people try too than can give reasonably good yeild. But either way, stick to the recipe !
 
EZ4U2Shoot
#7 Posted : 1/8/2008 2:26:14 PM

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[quote:97251d9074="El Ka Bong"]... ummm, keep reading - butane is a [b:97251d9074]gas[/b:97251d9074] at room temp, and it blows up real good ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butane And so I would say no - THC extraction has nothing to do with acid-base extraction of alkaloids from plants. And hash making has nothing to do with extracting alkaloids present in amounts as low as <1% - hash isn't an extract. THC is not technically an 'alkaloid', as it lacks a base (amine group, -NH2). In fact there is no nitrogen at all in THC, just C, H and O, and alkaloids by definition have an amine in their structure. The -NH2 group on alkaloids like dmt, allows you to separate the alkaloids out when you make the molecule charged. This happens in the first steps of Marsofold's Tek - by adding acid to make the dmt-NH2 into dmt-NH3(+), and thereby soluble in water. When a dmt-extraction tek calls for lye to basify, you make -NH3(+) become -NH2 again (with no charge, + or -), and so dmt is insoluble at basified pH (11.5). Solvents called for in dmt extraction teks are the only ones to use as they have chemical properties that preferentially dissolve (ie 'pull out'Pleased dmt-freebase over other basified alkaloids. Temperatures are also very important - warmer temps (40 - 55 C)speeds up extraction and solubilization of dmt (one hour at 55 deg C). Room temp extractions are just as effective if left for 8 hours - you still get all the dmt out. Read-up some more, and then learn a tek by practicing with the proper solvents. I recommend the Acid-base method by Marsofold, but there are other 'lazy', lye-eater, STB teks people try too than can give reasonably good yeild. But either way, stick to the recipe ![/quote:97251d9074] Basicly you're confirming what I said I suspected, right? Butane will pull oil that is soluble in butane but it wont pull the spice, or at least this is my thought on it anyway. And no disrespect intended, but honey oil hash is, in spite of it's simplicity, an extraction of canabanoids, but an extraction none the less. Butane does a wonderful, although not the most effient, job and extracting very pure and potent canibanoid oils without drawing out chloriphil. But I still agree with you in that as far as I know, the only thing it draws out is oil. So again, the question is not, "Can butane be used to extract spice?" but instead the quest is, "Can butane be used for defatting?" As for butane being a gas at room temperature, when it isn't under extreme compression it is. But because it is in a compressed container, it is liquid. When you spray it through the leaf it is still liquid and comes out as liquid, however it very very quickly evaporates into a gas. You can evap a half a gallon in a matter of a couple minutes, and even quicker if you put the pot into a larger pot of warm water. This fact alone, also makes it rather dangerous and extremely explosive. Swim usually only makes honey oil in the coldest months of the winter outside so that the butane will remain a liquid for a significant amount of time. Just another note on why I don't think that butane would be as good to use as naptha for spice: I believe butane will pull a lot of similar things that naptha does, because I have used naptha to make a dark oil hash. However, in order to do it with spice after it has been basified and can be pulled by naptha, one would either have to have the equipment to keep it under a whole lot of preasure or you would have to use an obcene amount of butane. Either way, it just would not be very economical. On second thought, since you are growing crystals, you would have no choice but to either make it in Antartica during the winter where you can keep a gallon jar of butane in liquid state long enough for crystals to grow, or you would just simply have to keep everything preasurized while you work with the butane, however that would be impossible because you would still have to seperate it from everything else and when you remove the preasure to do that then the butane will begin evaporating. From experience, I'll say, when Swim makes honey oil, he only does 2 butane runs on the bud, but he doesn't through the bud away after that because it still has a lot of good stuff in it. He has tried to get "all" of the good stuff out before, but it isn't worth it because even after spending $30 on butane alone and running it through just a qt oz the bud still gave a slight buzz when smoked. So, like I said, butane is not efficient for any kind of extraction. The only reason to use it on MJ is because what you do get is extremely pure and potent, but it still leaves behind a lot of stuff. I think this might be a different story if you put it all under preasure and let it sit and soak for a couple days, but it is neither safe nor conventional to do so. Conclusion: Butane has absolutely no viable economic use in the extraction of elfspice.
 
delafonze19
#8 Posted : 1/8/2008 6:59:24 PM
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The conatiner is airtight with a release valve. It can sit indefinittly under pressure. The product normally used is pot that has been vaporized. This should have very little THC left but yeilds a signifigant amount of oil. Prob due to being well ground and dried. This done with 2, 5 dollar butane cans. I believe it be very cost effective considering the substance would be thrown away otherwise. If butane held the spice I would let it evap not grow crystals. Dude would re-xstal if additionally cleaning was needed. Bottom line is the only wasy to know is to try right. Dude will try. I will keep you posted. IMHO even if $10 was spent to get 50mg of spice in a ten minute period this would be a cost effective solution, large apperatus would be built after the fact. Time is money if solvent cost increased by triple but time spent was a tenth I see this as a very large gain.
 
EZ4U2Shoot
#9 Posted : 1/9/2008 12:54:51 AM

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[quote:c2d5553d2f="delafonze19"]The conatiner is airtight with a release valve. It can sit indefinittly under pressure. The product normally used is pot that has been vaporized. This should have very little THC left but yeilds a signifigant amount of oil. Prob due to being well ground and dried. This done with 2, 5 dollar butane cans. I believe it be very cost effective considering the substance would be thrown away otherwise. If butane held the spice I would let it evap not grow crystals. Dude would re-xstal if additionally cleaning was needed. Bottom line is the only wasy to know is to try right. Dude will try. I will keep you posted. IMHO even if $10 was spent to get 50mg of spice in a ten minute period this would be a cost effective solution, large apperatus would be built after the fact. Time is money if solvent cost increased by triple but time spent was a tenth I see this as a very large gain.[/quote:c2d5553d2f] Vaporized.... Just smoke it.... Waste not want not.... As for butane pulling the spice, like I said, just from lots of experience w/ butane, I believe it 'might' possibly work for defatting but not much else. Besides that, if it were that easy, I think there would already be a butane tek. Also if you check out other sites and forums, and even this one, you'll find that this is not a new idea. I have read accounts of other people trying to use butane to pull spice and noone has done so with any real success. Apparently, it has something to do with the polarities of the butane, amines, and alkaloids that just doesn't make it a good solvent for this. Now, on the other hand, I wonder if it might aid in pulling that Jungle Spice I've read about, but I don't know. That stuff seems to be an oily waxy substance and it also seems to come out with a combination of other chems. So anyway, why don't you try running some butane through some powdered MHRB and tell me what comes out? Then try running butane through the MHRB after you basify it, and again, let us know what you get. And take pics so if you are able to pull something usefull out, we will know what to look for. Even if it doesn't pull DMT out, it might be able to pull something else that could be of use. Who knows? There are a lot of other alkaloids and such in the MHRB which haven't been identified.
 
MagikVenom
#10 Posted : 1/9/2008 1:52:19 AM

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It will not work for extracting freebase. However its great for defatting. Butane boils at around 33F so it will evap rapidly from the material after defat. M.V.
 
 
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