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Fear mongering and psychedelics Options
 
FranLover
#41 Posted : 2/19/2020 4:38:54 AM

Long live the world in peace, prosperity, and freedom from suffering


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Quote:
The sermons you will find in Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Taoist, etc. places of worship to the public are virtually indistinguishable in substance. Be an ethical person, is basically the shared ground.


Exactly. every wise person that ever existed, they all denounced Mara. They just called it by different names. No wise one ever said "yes, lets run around following our every whim, falling prey to every emotion, satisfying every carnal desire, yeah thats the way to live"

Do you know about the different buddhist schools? They say, "In my tradition, we believe the Dalai Lama is a reencarnation of blablabla...and in my tradition we believe in drawing devas....and im my tradition we believe in chanting...in my tradition we meditate more than in the other schools."

my question to you my friend is: Is there not something deeply flawed in being attached to these distinctions?
Todo lo que quiero es que me recuerdes siempre así...amándote. Mantay kuna kayadidididi~~Ayahuasca shamudididi. Silence ○ Shiva ◇ eternal Purusha.
What we have done is establish the rule of authority in silence. Silence is the administrator of the universe. In silence is the script of Natural Law, eternally guiding the destiny of everyone. The Joy of Giving See the job. Do the job. Stay out of the misery.
May this world be established with a sense of well-being and happiness. May all beings in all worlds be blessed with peace, contentment, and freedom.
This mass of stress visible in the here & now has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.
 

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OneIsEros
#42 Posted : 2/19/2020 2:38:55 PM
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In the Pali canon there is a moment where someone asks the Buddha why some people are more intelligent than others.

The Buddha’s answer was that they asked questions. So no, I do not think that asking follow-up questions is a flaw.

You are confusing the moment of transcending scholastic understanding with not having yet even reached that limited form of understanding. If you think you are one of the exceptional individuals in history who bypassed the scholarly phase, power to you. But even in a tradition like Zen, there are only a handful of people who did that. The vast majority were scholars whose scholastic discipline was an aspect of their practice.

And yes, there are disagreements among the Buddhist schools. The Buddha taught that he had found a liberation that was genuine, but that many spiritual accomplishments on the way could be confused for that final liberation. Hence why he was not satisfied with his own teachers, who led him as far as (first) meditative “nothingness”, and then (further) to “neither-perception-nor-non-perception”. These sound great, but his unyielding inquiry revealed that this wasn’t enough. It is natural there is some inquisitive disagreement in Buddhist philosophy.
 
FranLover
#43 Posted : 2/19/2020 5:14:58 PM

Long live the world in peace, prosperity, and freedom from suffering


Posts: 1299
Joined: 24-Sep-2018
Last visit: 29-Mar-2020
Location: I see you Mara
OneIsEros wrote:

But even in a tradition like Zen, there are only a handful of people who did that. The vast majority were scholars whose scholastic discipline was an aspect of their practice.


"Then it is clear, Sariputta, that you have no such direct personal knowledge of the Arahats, the Fully Enlightened Ones of the past, the future, and the present. How then dare you set forth a speech so lofty and lordly, an utterance so bold, a veritable sounding of the lion's roar, saying: 'This faith, Lord, I have in the Blessed One, that there has not been, there will not be, nor is there now another recluse or brahman more exalted in Enlightenment than the Blessed One'?"

Todo lo que quiero es que me recuerdes siempre así...amándote. Mantay kuna kayadidididi~~Ayahuasca shamudididi. Silence ○ Shiva ◇ eternal Purusha.
What we have done is establish the rule of authority in silence. Silence is the administrator of the universe. In silence is the script of Natural Law, eternally guiding the destiny of everyone. The Joy of Giving See the job. Do the job. Stay out of the misery.
May this world be established with a sense of well-being and happiness. May all beings in all worlds be blessed with peace, contentment, and freedom.
This mass of stress visible in the here & now has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.
 
OneIsEros
#44 Posted : 2/19/2020 9:03:59 PM
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Alright, message received. Dance with joy in the depth of your understanding, O cosmic jester of wisdom.
 
FranLover
#45 Posted : 2/19/2020 10:59:01 PM

Long live the world in peace, prosperity, and freedom from suffering


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I wish you inmense joy and happiness as well my friend. I, like all of us, have a lot to learn, and that is something to look foward to. And I learned inmensley from this one conversation. Thats one reason why people, people like you Eros, are so lovely. God bless!♡
Todo lo que quiero es que me recuerdes siempre así...amándote. Mantay kuna kayadidididi~~Ayahuasca shamudididi. Silence ○ Shiva ◇ eternal Purusha.
What we have done is establish the rule of authority in silence. Silence is the administrator of the universe. In silence is the script of Natural Law, eternally guiding the destiny of everyone. The Joy of Giving See the job. Do the job. Stay out of the misery.
May this world be established with a sense of well-being and happiness. May all beings in all worlds be blessed with peace, contentment, and freedom.
This mass of stress visible in the here & now has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.
 
OneIsEros
#46 Posted : 2/19/2020 11:16:00 PM
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Nah man, I think you’ve got it! The world religions are all saying the same thing and the differences are a matter of semantics rather than meaning. Thumbs up

That whole “formal nature” vs. radical anti-idealist thing is some sure tricky grammar, though. I mean, when my Zen teacher explained how a lobotomy does not make me any less complete in my nature because of the complete absence of a formal nature, which contributes to their rejection of the categories “good” and “evil”, it sure did blow my mind at the time, after having studied Aristotelian/Platonic/Procline philosophy, and how according to these folks “evils” are the defects which occur in the formal nature of substances (like, for example, humans having chunks of their brains cut out).... It seemed like a different way of looking at things like “self-nature”, at the time.

But hey, you say tomato, I say potato. Same thing, different word.
 
FranLover
#47 Posted : 2/20/2020 4:24:52 AM

Long live the world in peace, prosperity, and freedom from suffering


Posts: 1299
Joined: 24-Sep-2018
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Sounds like a good teacher. A good way to see that is in scars. A wound on the flesh heals. These self repairing, evolving mechanics of biology on all levels is the nature of nature. But only on the visible level, on the deep level, that is not a formal nature of nature, only one form, one manifestation of the formless. All the colorful leaves and branches and flowers of the tree form because of the colorless sap of the tree.

For example, I dont see a fundamental difference between these two statements; "The world is suffering" and "the purpose of life is the expansion of happiness." On a superficial level they sound distinct though. I know for example that when people hear the Four Noble Truths many think its depressive and gloomy. But its such a superificial level of thought to think that the "the world is suffering" is a concrete idea; it is formless, it is Pratītyasamutpāda
Todo lo que quiero es que me recuerdes siempre así...amándote. Mantay kuna kayadidididi~~Ayahuasca shamudididi. Silence ○ Shiva ◇ eternal Purusha.
What we have done is establish the rule of authority in silence. Silence is the administrator of the universe. In silence is the script of Natural Law, eternally guiding the destiny of everyone. The Joy of Giving See the job. Do the job. Stay out of the misery.
May this world be established with a sense of well-being and happiness. May all beings in all worlds be blessed with peace, contentment, and freedom.
This mass of stress visible in the here & now has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.
 
OneIsEros
#48 Posted : 2/20/2020 5:28:42 AM
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Wait until you read the Samyutta Nikaya then. There’s dozens of sutras where the Buddha proclaims the significance of life to be less than a speck of shit or dirt on his fingernail. He wasn’t exactly a eudaimonist when he thought of life in an ultimate sense - whereas Plato and Aristotle definitely were eudaimonists in the ultimate sense.
 
FranLover
#49 Posted : 2/20/2020 7:48:56 AM

Long live the world in peace, prosperity, and freedom from suffering


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I've not read all the Samyutta Nikaya, but I have read several sutras. I dont see why life being insignificant means buddah is not an eudaimonist in the ultimate sense. It seems to me that that makes him an ultimate eudaimonist, he is saying that our karma is the ultimate. Btw, I love the parts where the buddah fits whole universes in just one of his pores; very psychedelic.
Todo lo que quiero es que me recuerdes siempre así...amándote. Mantay kuna kayadidididi~~Ayahuasca shamudididi. Silence ○ Shiva ◇ eternal Purusha.
What we have done is establish the rule of authority in silence. Silence is the administrator of the universe. In silence is the script of Natural Law, eternally guiding the destiny of everyone. The Joy of Giving See the job. Do the job. Stay out of the misery.
May this world be established with a sense of well-being and happiness. May all beings in all worlds be blessed with peace, contentment, and freedom.
This mass of stress visible in the here & now has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.
 
OneIsEros
#50 Posted : 2/20/2020 2:58:25 PM
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If I recall, he couched it in terms of worth or value, so while Plato/Aristotle consider the universe to exist in terms of goodness, the Buddha actually denies this. The aim of Buddhism is not the generation of good karma but the end of all karma. As my Zen teacher repeatedly says - it is not about goodness. Some Tibetan Buddhists may disagree, but they are a very idiosyncratic branch of Buddhism. The only goodness the Buddha seemed to subscribe to seemed to be in negative terms. That is to say, healthy relationships, for example, are good because they counteract suffering - not because they are a positive “good” in themselves, as a Platonist would assert.
 
FranLover
#51 Posted : 2/20/2020 9:28:38 PM

Long live the world in peace, prosperity, and freedom from suffering


Posts: 1299
Joined: 24-Sep-2018
Last visit: 29-Mar-2020
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is the buddah a good person, of integrity, full of compassion?
Todo lo que quiero es que me recuerdes siempre así...amándote. Mantay kuna kayadidididi~~Ayahuasca shamudididi. Silence ○ Shiva ◇ eternal Purusha.
What we have done is establish the rule of authority in silence. Silence is the administrator of the universe. In silence is the script of Natural Law, eternally guiding the destiny of everyone. The Joy of Giving See the job. Do the job. Stay out of the misery.
May this world be established with a sense of well-being and happiness. May all beings in all worlds be blessed with peace, contentment, and freedom.
This mass of stress visible in the here & now has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.
 
OneIsEros
#52 Posted : 2/20/2020 11:51:24 PM
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Yes, Gotama was ethical in the extreme.

But there is a difference between believing reality is constituted in goodness, and being ethical.

Gotama did not think that there was any aspect of existence that justified life. To him, once Dukkha is resolved, the only motivation to go on living is to save other people from Dukkha. If there was no one to save, he was literally going to sit down and wait for his body to die.

In contrast, Platonism, in conjunction with the creation account in Genesis, asserts that every formal aspect of reality is good, and taken in its totality, is “very good”. This gives rise to the age old problem of evil in a universe that is supposedly good in Western philosophy, and attempts at accounting for it, which are known as theodicy.

No such tradition exists in Buddhism. Why? Because the Buddha flatly denied that existence is “good”. It has no positive value. No meaning, no purpose, nothing. Nada. It’s a speck of shit with distracting pleasures and horrible torments with no overarching value. That does not mean it is “evil”, it is rather completely neutral, neither good nor evil. But it does involve suffering, which only ends with Nirvana - which is itself, again, neutral. Its “goodness” is the end of the suffering. But that’s it. It’s a utilitarian good, not an “end in itself”. The ethical hero, Gotama, saves us from a mess, he doesn’t lead us to “the Good”. Life is not affirmed in Buddhism. Life is distinctly affirmed in Platonism, although it teaches that transcendence into the life of God or the Good itself is the highest goal of being (after all the other goods - life is good from top to bottom in Platonism). Not for Buddhism though.
 
FranLover
#53 Posted : 2/25/2020 6:32:56 AM

Long live the world in peace, prosperity, and freedom from suffering


Posts: 1299
Joined: 24-Sep-2018
Last visit: 29-Mar-2020
Location: I see you Mara
OneIsEros wrote:
If there was no one to save, he was literally going to sit down and wait for his body to die.


I dont know about that

OneIsEros wrote:
In contrast, Platonism, in conjunction with the creation account in Genesis, asserts that every formal aspect of reality is good, and taken in its totality, is “very good”. This gives rise to the age old problem of evil in a universe that is supposedly good in Western philosophy, and attempts at accounting for it, which are known as theodicy.

No such tradition exists in Buddhism. Why? Because the Buddha flatly denied that existence is “good”. It has no positive value. No meaning, no purpose, nothing. Nada. It’s a speck of shit with distracting pleasures and horrible torments with no overarching value. That does not mean it is “evil”, it is rather completely neutral, neither good nor evil. But it does involve suffering, which only ends with Nirvana - which is itself, again, neutral. Its “goodness” is the end of the suffering. But that’s it. It’s a utilitarian good, not an “end in itself”. The ethical hero, Gotama, saves us from a mess, he doesn’t lead us to “the Good”. Life is not affirmed in Buddhism. Life is distinctly affirmed in Platonism, although it teaches that transcendence into the life of God or the Good itself is the highest goal of being (after all the other goods - life is good from top to bottom in Platonism). Not for Buddhism though.


Its not 'thats just it' with no purpose, thats not what the buddah is saying, he is saying that its very subtle, beyond the scope of conjecture, and he always stresses to give merit to things that our of merit. He stresses that we should do what we ought to do, thats the definition of purpose, and the confirmation of nibbana and its bliss is the definition of divine purpose. The noble truths state that there is an end to suffering. the destruction of clinging. all these things have great merit.


Quote:
Damapada
https://www.accesstoinsi...kn/dhp/dhp.15.budd.html

200. Happy indeed we live, we who possess nothing. Feeders on joy we shall be, like the Radiant Gods.

201. Victory begets enmity; the defeated dwell in pain. Happily the peaceful live, discarding both victory and defeat.

202. There is no fire like lust and no crime like hatred. There is no ill like the aggregates (of existence) and no bliss higher than the peace (of Nibbana). [17]

203. Hunger is the worst disease, conditioned things the worst suffering. Knowing this as it really is, the wise realize Nibbana, the highest bliss.

204. Health is the most precious gain and contentment the greatest wealth. A trustworthy person is the best kinsman, Nibbana the highest bliss.

205. Having savored the taste of solitude and peace (of Nibbana), pain-free and stainless he becomes, drinking deep the taste of the bliss of the Truth.

206. Good is it to see the Noble Ones; to live with them is ever blissful. One will always be happy by not encountering fools.


Quote:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.soma.html
Kalama Sutta

"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.

"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.

"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.

"The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."

"So it is, Blessed One. So it is, Sublime one. The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, four solaces are found.

"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.


Todo lo que quiero es que me recuerdes siempre así...amándote. Mantay kuna kayadidididi~~Ayahuasca shamudididi. Silence ○ Shiva ◇ eternal Purusha.
What we have done is establish the rule of authority in silence. Silence is the administrator of the universe. In silence is the script of Natural Law, eternally guiding the destiny of everyone. The Joy of Giving See the job. Do the job. Stay out of the misery.
May this world be established with a sense of well-being and happiness. May all beings in all worlds be blessed with peace, contentment, and freedom.
This mass of stress visible in the here & now has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.
 
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