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[Breaking News] COMPASS, MAPS, Open Science, and For-Profit Approach to Sanctioned Psychedelics Options
 
dragonrider
#41 Posted : 8/17/2018 2:23:43 PM

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You could also look at it in a different way: for most users and underground researchers it would not make that much of a difference, because they're already breaking the law anyway.
(And for researchers there is probably an analogue substance available for practically every existing psychedelic substance, and patenting them all would be impractible because you'd have to research them all).

In terms of PR however, it would be a big loss for the war on drugs. Because first everybody's being told that these drugs are evil and make you crazy, and that this is the reason why they should be banned. But now all of a sudden, these very same substances have such high therapeutic value, and the use should be prohibited because of patent rights.

The argument "to protect our childeren" is effective because it uses fear and love. Two powerfull emotions.
The argument "to protect our patents" is not, because people do not identify themselves with pharmaceutical companies.
It is a losing strategy, in the long run.
 

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null24
#42 Posted : 8/17/2018 2:40:38 PM

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Quote:
In terms of PR however, it would be a big loss for the war on drugs. Because first everybody's being told that these drugs are evil and make you crazy, and that this is the reason why they should be banned. But now all of a sudden, these very same substances have such high therapeutic value, and the use should be prohibited because of patent rights.

Oh,for sure. If there's one thing the public won't go for its hypocrisy!Laughing
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SnozzleBerry
#43 Posted : 8/17/2018 4:28:22 PM

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dragonrider wrote:
You could also look at it in a different way: for most users and underground researchers it would not make that much of a difference, because they're already breaking the law anyway.


This is tremendously short-sighted, imo. Do you know how much help we've received due to sanctioned researchers freely sharing their data, expertise, and (in some cases) labs & equipment with us? If we imagine a terrain locked down by Big Pharma companies, it's pretty simple to argue that almost all of the work we've done here would be impossible.

But also, consider that we pirate a ton of peer-reviewed papers about the effects of psychedelics. Imagine a world where, at least some of that information is not published in peer-reviewed papers, but rather, is held as internal IP by big pharma companies.

You really think that doesn't have consequences here?

Quote:
In terms of PR however, it would be a big loss for the war on drugs.

As I've already suggested here and elsewhere, we see a null-sum game between incarcerations for drug and immigration crimes. A decrease in criminal populations for drug crimes likely drives an increase in the incarceration of folks for immigration crimes.

Not only have immigration "detention centers" (vomit) been on the rise for the past 20 years but...

On June 20, 2018, the same day that canada legalized recreational cannabis,

Trump signed an executive order calling for the indefinite detention of immigrant families.

I'm not saying causation, but the correlation is chilling, imo, and completely in-line with what I predicted in that talk ~3 years ago.

It's systemic, baby, I keep trying to tell you. Stretch that field of view and try to take it all in Wink
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dragonrider
#44 Posted : 8/18/2018 4:50:28 PM

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Don't you think they would have started with the incarceration of illegal immigrants, regardless of how many people would have already been locked-up for anything drug related?

I mean, if you're right, then we have a bit of a moral dilemma here: would we be willing to sacrifice migrants for the legalisation of drugs?

But i think the relation rather is the opposite of what you suggest: the more people they incarcerate, the more people they'll incarcerate. And the less...the less. Because of the economics of scale.

The issue of immigration unfortunately, just happens to be the alpha and omega of modern politics. Did you know that in europe, many people actually believe that there is a plan from the EU to replace europe's indigenous, white population, with migrants from islamic countries? Usually george soros or even "the jews" in general, are also considered to be in on it. Almost all people who vote far-right actually believe this, so that would be something in between 10 to 20% of tbe european population. No, illegal immigration is the big thing. And will be for the next few decades. Too little consensus on it, so very suitable for polarizing people.

But to get back to the war on drugs...i think "our side" is winning it. But not straight away. It's like a spanish procession: two steps forward, one step back, repeated on and on.
Public opinion is the decisive factor. And it's shifting.
 
Jees
#45 Posted : 8/18/2018 6:20:28 PM

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This I know from someone who is part of the process to granting patents, be it in a specific industrial section: in substantial amount of cases the patents really hold little-to-no value at all. The company just want a holster of patents to buy credentials, it profiles the company PR wise, kind of advertising seriousness. I'm not suggesting this is what Compass is doing here but it exist and it happens.

 
SnozzleBerry
#46 Posted : 8/21/2018 3:37:42 PM

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dragonrider wrote:
But i think the relation rather is the opposite of what you suggest: the more people they incarcerate, the more people they'll incarcerate. And the less...the less. Because of the economics of scale.


Sounds like you didn't actually check out my argument and are unfamiliar with the US' for profit prison system. I stand behind my assertions Smile


Jees wrote:
This I know from someone who is part of the process to granting patents, be it in a specific industrial section: in substantial amount of cases the patents really hold little-to-no value at all. The company just want a holster of patents to buy credentials, it profiles the company PR wise, kind of advertising seriousness. I'm not suggesting this is what Compass is doing here but it exist and it happens.


For sure. There are also junk patents which create their own problems and would be a pretty significant barrier to entry. It takes a lot of money to go to court. Big pharma companies have a lot of money. In comparison, the rest of us (including most research institutions/universities/private firms/start-ups) do not. If you spend your budget fighting patent suits, you're not going to get any research done. Not a pretty picture.
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SnozzleBerry
#47 Posted : 8/21/2018 3:46:07 PM

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My final slide from the weekend is attached.

When I brought up the exclusivity deal COMPASS signed with Onyx pharmaceuticals for GMP psilocybin, Rick started, like I'd slapped him, and turned beet red.

I also brought up the regulatory nonsense that COMPASS is playing at.

I know this isn't much information, but let's start here and I'll share components of what I revealed at the conference to w/e degree I can, while I work to get stuff into writing.

Feel free to ask questions and I'll answer as/how I'm able to the best of my abilities at this time.
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In New York, we wrote the legal number on our arms in marker...To call a lawyer if we were arrested.
In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names.
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dreamer042
#48 Posted : 8/21/2018 4:43:37 PM

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I know you are really busy dedicating all your spare time to this. I know you've done your due diligence, and I appreciate and support what you are doing.

I am having a hard time understanding the situation and knowing how/where to lend my support, and I think I can safely say this applies to rest of the nexus membership and the larger psychedelic psychedelic community who want to understand and support what you are doing.

You've gathered the evidence and launched into your critiques already, but you are very much going it alone at this point as you've neglected to lay out the full picture and share the raw data with your potential groundswell of support. I admire the fortitude, but I'd suggest your campaign has embarked in haste and that it might be advisable to step back from the head on onslaught at this point and focus on getting the data out there, or to rally and brief the troops so to speak.

I expect you have good reasons for why you haven't given us the full picture yet, but there isn't much we can do to assist you until you lay it all out for us.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

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SnozzleBerry
#49 Posted : 8/21/2018 7:11:20 PM

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I hear you, and...

Has anyone even bothered to look through the COMPASS page like I suggested?

Quote:
7Cups has developed a training bot which is used by our therapists to develop and practise their active listening skills.

Scroll down to bottom

Quote:
Thomas Lönngren
Independent Director
Thomas Lönngren is a senior regulatory Executive, and served as Executive Director of the European Medicines Agency (EMA) from 2001-2010.

Scroll down

Ex-head of Europe’s drug regulator set up consultancy while still in office

And there's plenty more on there Wink

Can you guys ask specific questions you'd like answered and I'll do my best to fill in what I can? Would that maybe be helpful? I'm so deep in this it's hard for me to have perspective around what is minutiae and what is important. Add in the developing nature of things and it gets trickier. Sorry for any frustration I'm causing Love
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obliguhl
#50 Posted : 8/21/2018 8:07:55 PM

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SnozzleBerry wrote:
I hear you, and...

Has anyone even bothered to look through the COMPASS page like I suggested?

Quote:
7Cups has developed a training bot which is used by our therapists to develop and practise their active listening skills.

Scroll down to bottom


Can you guys ask specific questions you'd like answered


Yes, why this is prroblematic.
 
SnozzleBerry
#51 Posted : 8/21/2018 8:37:51 PM

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Assuming you wanted a psilocybin therapist (I don't)... Would you like your psilocybin therapist trained in open listening by an app? I sure wouldn't. Is that really a difficult issue for you to grasp?

Also, considering that you focused on that, rather than Lonngren, I'm understanding that you're not actually interested in engaging with the serious issues here. Thumbs down
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SnozzleBerry
#52 Posted : 8/21/2018 8:44:39 PM

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COMPASS signed an exclusivity agreement with Onyx pharmaceuticals. There are currently conflicting reports about the nature of that exclusivity. I understood that it would last for 18mos and then become less-exclusive as long as certain provisions were met. However, Rick said that he believed that exclusivity may remain as long as COMPASS buys in sufficiently high quantities following that initial 18-month period.

This means that our friends at research institutions such as JHU, NYU, UCSF, and elsewhere are unable to procure GMP psilocybin (necessary for phase 2 and phase 3 clinical trials) from Onyx. Oh, and did I mention that COMPASS isn't actually ready to run their psilocybin trials? So that exclusivity is literally just hamstringing legit research institutions, as far as I can tell.

Additionally, MAPS and COMPASS are sharing sites and MAPS is training COMPASS therapists. In other words, essentially, a non-profit (MAPS) is subsidizing a for-profit enterprise (COMPASS) that's actively creating barriers to psychedelic research. And Rick and the MAPS crew are fully aware of all of this.

Y'all cool with that?
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In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names.
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dreamer042
#53 Posted : 8/21/2018 10:59:15 PM

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Is Onyx the only licensed supplier of GMP psilocybin? How does Onyx (being based in San Francisco) have permission to distribute schedule 1 substances in the first place? Where have the researchers at JHU,NYU ect. obtained the psilocybin for prior studies, are those sources no longer feasible because phase one trials did not require GMP psilocybin?

What kind of support is needed here? Lean on MAPS to withdraw support from COMPASS? Or simply to remove their signatures on the open science document? In the case that they choose the latter path, what then?
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

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SnozzleBerry
#54 Posted : 8/21/2018 11:13:24 PM

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dreamer042 wrote:
Is Onyx the only licensed supplier of GMP psilocybin? How does Onyx (being based in San Francisco) have permission to distribute schedule 1 substances in the first place? Where have the researchers at JHU,NYU ect. obtained the psilocybin for prior studies, are those sources no longer feasible because phase one trials did not require GMP psilocybin?

Phase 1 doesn't require GMP, only research grade. It used to be phase 1&2 could both use research grade, but that changed somewhat recently (unrelated to COMPASS) and I can explain in more detail later.

I'm not clear on the distribution aspect, but to me it's not the main focus as this is who MAPS has plans to get/is getting MDMA from. My understanding is that there are other potential sources of GMP psilo being explored, but none have panned out, yet. The original supplier encountered some issues, which is what led to the need to find a supplier and approaching Onyx. I think some folks are working with Nichols' material at the moment, but not sure of the grade/phase. The UCSF work going on with AIDS patients is phase 1, so no issue with GMP.


dreamer042 wrote:
What kind of support is needed here? Lean on MAPS to withdraw support from COMPASS? Or simply to remove their signatures on the open science document? In the case that they choose the latter path, what then?


I think lean on MAPS to drop COMPASS is significantly more meaningful than getting them to take off their signatures. I would suggest email campaigns or call-ins as a decent starting point? Social media memes? It's kind of a PR war at the moment, no?

MAPS likes to act as though they're our advocates for advancing psychedelic research. Why would our psychedelic research advocates make it harder for folks we actually know or whose research we have shared and referenced for at least the last decade to do that work? Why would our advocates work with people who are tied-in to the most mindblowing piece of surveillance apparatus unveiled to-date? That doesn't sound like advocacy to me.

If all they're willing to do is take their signatures off, it's still a PR war. But there's a reason they haven't just said, "Sure, fine, we'll remove our signatures" They understand that appearances matter. They need our support. As I keep saying...

Institutions need people, not vice versa.



COMPASS memes if you need a laugh. I didn't make these, but I appreciated a few of them quite a bit.
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Loveall
#55 Posted : 8/22/2018 3:32:42 AM

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So what does MAPS see as postive from COMPASS? Is it the money needed to get psychedelics approved through the FDA process? Is MAPS begrudgingly collaborating with COMPASS because they see no practical alternative to overcome the $$$ obstacles?

At the same time, MAPS also needs the support of the researchers.

I think money alone does not get it done (you need researchers, and maybe there are not a lot of those willing to make a career out of psychedelics). Researchers alone cannot get it done either (money is needed).

So what is next? Looks like for the collaborative effort to continue we need $$$ to remove roadblocks that the current system has.

It was estimated that in 2010, 30 million people in the US take psychedelics. Also, they work. Users consistently report benefits with few draw backs. The first person accounts are all over the web together with the increasing number of published scientific papers.

One option is to crowd source psychedelic science. In a way, psychedelics are about coming together and finding novel solutions to problems. How powerful would it be if psychedelics could overcome the limitations of capitalism and find a new way to become accepted by the FDA via crowdsourcing.

How much $$$ is needed to get each psychedelic approved for human use and out of schedule I? How much $$$ is MAPS already crowdsourcing? What is the gap? What are the odds we can close the gap with a public campain? Do we have a chance?

Let's not forget that alturistic collaborative effort have worked before. Look at Linux or Wikipedia.

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obliguhl
#56 Posted : 8/22/2018 8:28:43 AM

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Quote:
Assuming you wanted a psilocybin therapist (I don't)... Would you like your psilocybin therapist trained in open listening by an app? I sure wouldn't. Is that really a difficult issue for you to grasp?

Also, considering that you focused on that, rather than Lonngren


1. No, why would it be a problem that a part of a therapists skills are bot trained?!
Active listening is a technique that is very schematic..if you are using humans to train that or a bot...makes no difference. It's only about that specific technique and you can be sure thats only part of their training. You even state yourself that maps trains them. Also, compass list more ways to train them (meditation). This section is also meant as a showcase for speciality project they are involved in and is not meant to be an exhaustive list of all training methods involved.

2. You asked what i needed clarification on. On the Lönngren case i did not need clarification. But now i get portraied as careless. Not cool.
 
Loveall
#57 Posted : 8/22/2018 5:23:45 PM

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https://maps.org/donate-redirect/why-give wrote:
Every dollar has come from visionary individuals committed to our mission. For-profit drug companies have not invested because these compounds cannot be patented and are taken only a few times. We're also encouraging government agencies and major public foundations to support our research. For now, it's up to individuals like you to support the future of psychedelic medicine.


What better way to help MAPS break with COMPASS than with a flood donation? We would need a goal and to track ourselves to it. Then start an effort to crowdsource psychedelic research fully.

The falsehoods and damage of schedule I criminalization are becoming apparent. People are using psychedelics. The DEA has to reschedule CBD by the end of Spetember and admit they have been wrong for over half a century, damaging the quality of life of many epileptic children in the process. Ronald Reagan suffered from Alzheimer's which research shows Marijuana may help manage (the plant very plant he demonized). The truth is coming out. Books on psychedelics top the best seller lists. Seems like we have a chance to pull it off. Why not try?

I think the problem at large is that $$$ is needed to move the research. As long as that remains an issue, there will be an opportunity for pro-profit investors to come in and capitalize on our very effective and almost miracle natural medicines. While the capitalist method can help cut through red tape, it must in turn limit acess and create artificial scarcity to generate value and return on investment (the simple rules of the game).

We are facing a disfunctional dilemma. I propose that to fix it we focus our efforts on crowdsourcing psychedelics research and development.

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SnozzleBerry
#58 Posted : 8/22/2018 7:26:55 PM

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obliguhl wrote:
Quote:
Assuming you wanted a psilocybin therapist (I don't)... Would you like your psilocybin therapist trained in open listening by an app? I sure wouldn't. Is that really a difficult issue for you to grasp?

Also, considering that you focused on that, rather than Lonngren


1. No, why would it be a problem that a part of a therapists skills are bot trained?!
Active listening is a technique that is very schematic..if you are using humans to train that or a bot...makes no difference. It's only about that specific technique and you can be sure thats only part of their training. You even state yourself that maps trains them. Also, compass list more ways to train them (meditation). This section is also meant as a showcase for speciality project they are involved in and is not meant to be an exhaustive list of all training methods involved.

2. You asked what i needed clarification on. On the Lönngren case i did not need clarification. But now i get portraied as careless. Not cool.

My apologies, you are entirely correct. It wasn't cool and I'm sorry for how I replied. I'm running on a pretty big sleep deficit and was feeling attacked. That doesn't excuse my behavior, I'd just like you to understand where I'm at in the hopes you can forgive my behaviors.

Fwiw, none of the therapists I've spoken to, nor any of the researchers, think this is a good idea.

COMPASS has also created an 8-minute cartoon for potential patients that's apparently supposed to introduce them to their psilocybin therapy. At least two folks who are actively engaged in psilocybin for MDD/demoralization research were pretty...unhappy?...with this as a route.

COMPASS appears to be looking to cut costs wherever possible and, as I understand it, will be leaning heavily on apps/AI to remove the human element (and cost) for these therapies. Personally, I find that quite troubling.


Loveall, I'll do my best to answer some of your questions a little later, got a few things to take care of first.

If anyone following this thread missed it, here's some audio that has additional info. I will be writing a piece to contextualize this stuff a bit more within the next day or two.
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Loveall
#59 Posted : 8/24/2018 1:32:07 PM

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Not sure if this is old news or not, but I just saw this come out in the news: COMPASS gets green light for a phase IIB psilocybin drug trials in the US to treat depression.

https://www.foxbusiness....fda-okay-to-begin-trials

Yes, this is a Fox news article on the Nexus about using magic mushrooms to help people instead of heartlessly throwing them in jail. Behold the power of $$$. The story of human monkeys is sometimes very sad.
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dragonrider
#60 Posted : 8/24/2018 6:55:22 PM

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Aren't places like the DMT nexus a threat to people who want to patent psychedelics? I know very little about patents, but i suppose that at least you should prove that your product is different from products already out there.

So i mean, suppose someone would come along and claim that he invented changa and make a lot of noise about it (hypothetically ofcourse Big grin ).....then all you'd have to do in response is search the internet for "changa", "smokeable DMT infused herbs" or related terms, and you would end up here, right?
 
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