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Enhanced sublingual salvia powder Options
 
gibran2
#81 Posted : 9/2/2018 4:37:35 PM

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Zebbie wrote:

But there are other factors that will affect the extraction. The viscosity of IPA is considerably higher than that of acetone, so it won't penetrate the trichomes as well as acetone. However, if you heat the IPA, the viscosity drops.

Salvinorin extraction efficacy has nothing to do with viscosity of the solvent.

It seems you believe that Salvinorin A is somehow “trapped” in trichomes and needs significant coaxing to get it free. This is simply not true.

Salvinorin A is in no way trapped in trichomes and can be easily removed by adding a solvent. Even cold solvents (very cold in the case of acetone) are very effective in extracting Salvinorin A.

There is no need to heat solvents, and heating adds a level of unnecessary risk and may extract undesirable waxes and other lipids.

I appreciate all of the work and experimentation you’re sharing with the Nexus, but please check your facts and try not to spread misinformation.
gibran2 is a fictional character. Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.
 

Trippy glass for trippy people.
 
Zebbie
#82 Posted : 9/2/2018 7:44:58 PM

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Hello Gibran. I like people who disagree with me. It gives me an opportunity to review my beliefs and perceptions about a topic. I will discard those where I have been shown to be wrong, and adopt new views that I now believe to be correct. So I welcome controversy!

gibran2 wrote:
It seems you believe that Salvinorin A is somehow “trapped” in trichomes and needs significant coaxing to get it free.

Significant coaxing is only required when you chew leaf. When you consume powders, the solvents have done all the hard work for you! Smile

gibran2 wrote:
There is no need to heat solvents, and heating adds a level of unnecessary risk and may extract undesirable waxes and other lipids.

You are right, heating adds more risk. I will not heat any solvents in future.

The "undesirable waxes and other lipids" may be undesirable if you are preparing an extract for smoking, but it is precisely these lipids that you need for sublingual absorption of salvinorin A.

The lipids in question come from cell membranes and the inner and outer membrane surrounding chloroplasts. The lipids are predominantly phospholipids and galactolipids. You can see from the attached images that these lipids are polar in nature, and can form micellar structures. The micelles will have polar groups (ionic phosphate and non-ionic galactosyl groups) on the outside of the micelle. The inside of the micelle will contain salvinorin surrounded by fatty acid groups.


Zebbie attached the following image(s):
01. Chloroplast.png (556kb) downloaded 274 time(s).
02. phospholipid.png (47kb) downloaded 273 time(s).
03. Galactolipid.jpg (60kb) downloaded 272 time(s).
04. Micelle and bilayer.JPG (133kb) downloaded 272 time(s).
 
Zebbie
#83 Posted : 9/2/2018 8:04:51 PM

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Look at the illustration in the bottom left hand corner of the diagram, titled lipid-based systems. This is the mental picture I have of the drug delivery system for the sublingual absorption of salvinorin A. In all the illustrations, D stands for drug. In our case, D = salvinorin A!
Zebbie attached the following image(s):
Common strategies to address low drug solubility.jpg (133kb) downloaded 273 time(s).
 
Zebbie
#84 Posted : 9/7/2018 8:36:23 AM

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I have had two trips with the powder prepared in Post #79. The first trip was intense, but nothing I couldn't handle. The second trip was terrifying. I will describe it separately to the first trip.

First trip, 31 August 2018

The Flavor Apprentice (TFA) makes a product named Smooth. It is a blend of propylene glycol and triacetin. It is sold to vape enthusiasts, for rounding out the flavour of their vape mixtures. The reason I bought it, was because I want to use triacetin as a solvent for making S. Divinorum tinctures, and this is the closest I could get to triacetin.

I weighed out 0.37g of the powder prepared above. This is equivalent to 1g of leaf. I added 10 drops of Smooth. I was hoping that the triacetin would solubilize the salvinorin. I put the dark green paste into my mouth. I touched my tongue with the tip of my finger. It came out dark green. The dark green was tightly bound to my skin, and wouldn't rinse off with water. When I looked at my mouth in the mirror, it was black!

4' Warmth
7' Itch
8' Trip begins
37' Emerged, re-submerged
1H27' Trip over.

During the trip, I kept on seeing the image of my black mouth. I had repeated thoughts that the trip was pointless, and hoping it would end soon.

I took another photo of my tongue immediately after the trip, and again 10 minutes after the trip. It takes a long time for the colour to dissipate.
Zebbie attached the following image(s):
02. Blend of propylene glycol and triacetin.jpg (243kb) downloaded 250 time(s).
03. Powder made in Post #79.jpg (272kb) downloaded 249 time(s).
04. After addition of 10 drops of triacetin blend.jpg (293kb) downloaded 249 time(s).
05. Oily, water-insoluble green stain.jpg (433kb) downloaded 250 time(s).
06. Tongue 30 seconds after ingestion.jpg (416kb) downloaded 250 time(s).
07. Tongue immediately after trip.jpg (377kb) downloaded 250 time(s).
08. Tongue 10 minutes after trip.jpg (389kb) downloaded 250 time(s).
 
Zebbie
#85 Posted : 9/7/2018 8:56:25 AM

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Second trip, 6 September 2018. This was an evening trip.

I weighed out 0.31g of the powder made in Post #79. I did not add any triacetin. I put the powder under my tongue, and went to bed. I like to listen to Jean Michel Jarre's "Equinoxe" when tripping in bed. So I was busy sorting out my iPad and earphones when the trip began. I only remember fragments of the trip, so it is best to describe it from the point of my wife, who was in bed with me at the time. I use a cyan font to differentiate her words from mine.

"I was lying in bed watching a YouTube video. This was about 9 pm. You had been lying on your back. Then you leaned forward, with your hands over your eyes, and your head on your iPad. I thought this was a little odd. Then you leaned back, but kept staring at me.

After a while, you got up and tried to move around the bed.
(I got up because I wanted to go to the bathroom for a sip of water). You made it to the bottom of the bed, and collapsed face down on top of it, with your legs pushing against the dressing table. You constantly lifted your head like a gecko, with wide staring eyes, then dropped your head, only to repeat the cycle again a few seconds later. I told you, "get back on to the bed", and you said you couldn't move. I got out of bed, picked up your legs, and pushed you on to the bed. At that stage, you were drenched in perspiration. You were sopping wet.

You lay for a short while, then sat on the edge of the bed. (my second attempt at going to the bathroom). You were holding your head and looking at me. I had already stopped what I was doing, and was focused on you. I came and sat by you. Your breathing was strange, and your swallowing was strange. You were struggling to swallow, like you couldn't get anything down your throat. (I had a very dry mouth, and it felt like there was something in my throat. I tried clearing it by swallowing, but couldn't swallow).

I asked you if you wanted to vomit, and you said yes. I fetched a bucket. You held the bucket tightly in both arms, with your head hanging over the bucket. (I felt nauseous for a few minutes, but didn't vomit). You put the bucket down, and held my hands. (When my eyes were open, I could see my wife's hands. They looked fragmented. When I closed my eyes, the hands felt disembodied, like I was holding a fish). I could feel that you were shuddering. I asked you what I could do, and you said you just need to be held. I asked if you wanted me to take you to hospital, and you said no. I wrapped you in my arms, at that stage you were still sitting. I could feel that you were getting very cold. I put you into bed. I climbed in next to you, and wrapped you in my arms, because I wanted to listen to your breathing.

By the time you came out of your trip, it was already 10:20. At this stage, you were speaking normally. You asked for water, so I got you a glass of water.

It sounds so mild when I describe it like this, but I actually thought you were going to die, and I was wondering what to do. I had to change my top, because it was wet. I put on a T-shirt. You put your eye mask into the drawer of the pedestal, and said "Never again". Even after I switched off all the lights, I watched you for some time, before I fell asleep".


I remember one particularly unpleasant hallucination. I was being formed slowly. Initially there was just an outline of me, that was slowly filled in. The filling in never completed. The view would zoom out (like Google maps!) and the part that was filled in, would become a very tiny part of the new me that had to be filled in. This sequence repeated over and over again. Now I understand the references to fractal images in trip reports.

At the time, I had no awareness that this was an illusion. I felt like I was stuck in an endless loop.

When I opened my eyes, everything looked choppy and appeared to be moving. This made me nauseous. But when I closed my eyes, the bad hallucinations took over!

I really don't understand why the two trips were so profoundly different. I don't think the triacetin could have made such a difference. Is reverse tolerance like an on/off switch? Or does it build gradually?

I noticed that the powder did not look homogeneous when I weighed it out last night. So I examined the remainder of the powder. It is a mixture of green and white bits. Maybe last night's scary trip was the result of a chunk of highly concentrated active material in my dose of powder.



Zebbie attached the following image(s):
10. Remainder of powder, about 0.6 grams.jpg (445kb) downloaded 250 time(s).
 
Jees
#86 Posted : 9/7/2018 9:31:13 AM

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Those tongue pics are rather odd to see, but it's good for people to know they will be green stained for a while. I hope you figure out a clue why that last one was super heavy.
 
physics envy
#87 Posted : 9/7/2018 6:37:42 PM

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Whoa!! Shocked

Glad you made it out the other side okay!

I haven't heard of reverse tolerance being an on/off switch before...will be interesting if future sessions are similar for you or not. A guy on the shroomery recently said he blacks out if he smokes 0.5mg of salvinorin in 90 seconds or less (which seems extremely sensitive to me). I asked if that happened over the years or if he's always been that sensitive, and he said *always* (and I think he's smoked for 20+ years).

I remember my 'never again' moment with Salvia and my wife. It was the first time I smoked a 20-30x blend early on in my salvia smoking days. I had made too big of a jump from what I was used to and I guess my body and mind wasn't prepared.

But mine made sense...yours seems quite strange. Even if you had a 'hotspot' of salvinorin, from previous tests with 3-4x your normal amount of salvinorin I would have thought a hotspot would just cause a long, intense trip. Not this.

Salvia quid enthusiast
 
RhythmSpring
#88 Posted : 9/7/2018 10:31:11 PM

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WHY are you guys screwing around with this? An honest question. Please tell me your exact and deepest motives.

Because as far as I can tell, you guys are "ooooooh what's THIS button do?" with one of the most underratedly serious PLANTS we have on earth. I'd tell you to stay the **** away from dicking around with Salvia, but I don't have to, because the plant and/or chemicals will kill you or your soul anyway.

This thread makes me very angry, deep, deep inside, as someone who has worked a long time with Salvia. There is probably no way I can explain to you in words why what you are doing is wrong, so I will just have to trust that the metaphysical spaces I have in mind still have their proper locks.

From the unspoken
Grows the once broken
 
physics envy
#89 Posted : 9/8/2018 1:49:36 AM

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Hi RhythmSpring,

I didn't understand why you are so angry, so I went back and reread most of your posts in this forum over the last few years.

I recalled you being quite experienced with Salvia, but forgot that you were the one that said you now go into a light SD state just by sniffing a fleck of leaf due to becoming extremely sensitive.

And I also forgot that at one point you were quite scared that you gave a friend PTSD via a smoked session.

I also forgot that you said it induced depersonalization in you, and that you also had a super ventricular tachycardia the morning after a buccal experience.

You've had some seriously scary episodes involving Salvia.

So I believe you have a genuine concern for the safety of everyone involved here.

So I'll give you my motive.

I've been working with Salvia for 10 years.

Initially, I started out smoking low dose extracts and progressed to high dose extracts, mainly for the novelty of it - along with experimenting with other substances (dmt, aya, mushrooms).

Several years later, after starting to do self-inquiry to better myself, I started quidding Salvia. I found those effects to be extremely valuable in terms of learning about myself, my addictions, why I act the way I do in relationships, etc.

From then on, I rarely smoked extracts, but quidded between 1-4 times a month for several years.

I absolutely LOVE salvia and fully respect its power and its potential for showing the nature of reality as well as the nature of the self. I've grown it, given away plants to help it propagate, and treat it as an intelligent ally.

When I moved to an area full of psychonauts (San Francisco), I became friends with many people who have tried just about everything under the sun...but few have tried quidding salvia. I've explained how much I've benefited from it, and a few people have given it a try.

However, most of them either couldn't stand the bitterness, had a 'gag' factor, or just didn't get much of an effect.

So my interest in these experiments is to try to find easier (and of course safe) ways for those who have been unable to successfully quid salvia leaves (without using an alcohol tincture).

I'm not sure if your concern/anger is about the use of extractions in general, or mixing extractions with other chemicals such as propylene glycol and triacetin.

I can understand both options above, but I will fully admit that I'm not in the camp that believes that everything has to be absolutely natural (vs. synthetic) to be useful.







Salvia quid enthusiast
 
Jees
#90 Posted : 9/8/2018 1:23:59 PM

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RhythmSpring wrote:
...There is probably no way I can explain to you in words why what you are doing is wrong...
I really think you should try nonetheless to avoid your post becoming floaty. Btw your sentiment could fit most entheogens.
 
Loveall
#91 Posted : 9/8/2018 5:56:47 PM

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Zebbie, thank you for all the work you are doing with salvia.

One thing you can try is to send a white chunk and a green chunk out for analysis. Or you could get a home testing TLC kit. There is also a way to make a salvia reagent test using vanillin and sulfuric acid (available by buying battery acid) - but I have not tried it.

You may already be aware of all these options. Let me know if you want anycmore details around any of them.

Another option is to grind the powder to mix everything up evenly and test again with smaller doses.

I salute you for your efforts and send you a warm thanks.
 
Zebbie
#92 Posted : 9/8/2018 7:19:47 PM

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Thanks for the words of encouragement, Loveall. You are right - there may be big differences in salvinorin content between the green and white bits.

This patent says, "The resulting product is a white crystalline form of Salvinorin A accompanied by dark, waxy chlorophyll compounds, which aid in the sublingual and buccal absorption". (Paragraph [0150]).
Maybe it is a difference in chlorophyll that resulted in a more intense trip.

Sublingual consumption of salvia is like a choreographed dance. Everything has to happen in a certain sequence to ensure a good trip. If some components are missing, (like the carriers) or other components are in excess (like salivary esterases and carboxyesterase in the blood), you will have insufficient salvinorin A reaching the kappa opioid receptors.

Loveall wrote:
Another option is to grind the powder to mix everything up evenly and test again with smaller doses.

Your suggestion is very good. That is exactly what I am going to do!

 
Zebbie
#93 Posted : 9/8/2018 7:38:57 PM

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RhythmSpring wrote:
Please tell me your exact and deepest motives.

I want to make salvia more accessible to those who have never experienced salvia before.
In other words: Salviation for the masses! Very happy

The powders are a practical alternative to quidding or smoking. As you can see from my last post, there is still a lot of work to be done to make the powders more predictable.

I keep records of everything I do. A quick review showed me that I have used a shotgun approach to find out what works, and what doesn't. Now that I have a better appreciation of the underlying mechanisms, I can focus on refinement. These are the process variables to date:

Solvents: I have used hexane, acetone, 91% IPA and 40% ethanol.
Particle size: I used ground leaf and crushed leaf
Extraction time: From 2 minutes to 15 minutes
Extraction temperature: From 18°C to 55°C
Inert substrate: Starch, diatomaceous earth, unscented talc, crushed eggshell, crushed dolomite tablets.
Storage temperature: Ambient and freezer.

Some of these combinations were unsuccessful, so I didn't report them. For instance, I used a hexane wash to remove the waxy cuticle from the leaf, prior to extracting with acetone. Unfortunately, hexane removed all the valuable lipids as well!

The process variables can be controlled easily. The environmental variables are more difficult to control, e.g.

1. What did you have to eat before your trip? Some foods can increase the permeability of the mucous membrane in the mouth, e.g. chili pepper, black pepper, mint and ginger.

2. Some natural products contain carboxylesterase inhibitors.
Consuming these products before a salvia trip will probably intensify the trip.

3. The amount of salivary esterases varies from individual to individual, and from hour to hour. It is even dependent on how much exercise you do.
These esterases can result in more or less salvinorin A being destroyed in the mouth, therefore affecting the trip intensity.

4. The emotional state of the individual before tripping.

*************************

The next step is to make a big batch of very uniform powder with tightly controlled process variables. I would use identical doses of this powder to explore the impact of environmental variables on the trip duration and trip intensity.


 
Loveall
#94 Posted : 9/8/2018 8:05:24 PM

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Speaking of carboxylesterase inhibitors, here is one medicinal plant I've been growing for future salvia experiments:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=76904

I've got enough to share Smile . Let me know of any interest.
 
Cactus Man
#95 Posted : 11/20/2018 4:19:21 PM
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RhythmSpring wrote:
WHY are you guys screwing around with this? An honest question. Please tell me your exact and deepest motives.

Because as far as I can tell, you guys are "ooooooh what's THIS button do?" with one of the most underratedly serious PLANTS we have on earth. I'd tell you to stay the **** away from dicking around with Salvia, but I don't have to, because the plant and/or chemicals will kill you or your soul anyway.

This thread makes me very angry, deep, deep inside, as someone who has worked a long time with Salvia. There is probably no way I can explain to you in words why what you are doing is wrong, so I will just have to trust that the metaphysical spaces I have in mind still have their proper locks.



Are you simply saying because its not being used for a spiritual/religious purpose its improper? Please be more clear.
 
Loveall
#96 Posted : 5/17/2021 5:17:58 PM

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Are we sure the starch is not helping with sublingual administration?

Reading this review paper they mention that salvinorin is lyophilic. I think starch makes a lyophilic colloidal solution.

So maybe the starch helps salvinorin go unit solution and diffuse into the body sublingually? As I understand this thread all strong positive results had starch as part of the formulation. Of course, it could still be an inert carrier as had been assumed, but do we have the dedicated experiment to be sure?

Maybe I'll test pure crystalline salvinorin + starch sublingually, see what happens.
 
Chasemandingo
#97 Posted : 5/17/2021 6:39:11 PM

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This is so interesting. Read and reread this thread and will read again. Loveall please let us know if you replicate this experiment.
 
Loveall
#98 Posted : 5/17/2021 9:36:53 PM

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Attaching a review paper that may be relevant.

Aloe Vera and chitosan may also be worth looking at.
 
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