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Is the research on DMT Nexus the way to go or counter productive? Options
 
DrSeltsam
#1 Posted : 8/12/2017 4:37:07 PM

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Dear fellow members,

I had something on my mind that I would like to share with you to get your thoughts. I was thinking to dedicate some more time to research different ways to extract or purity compounds from plant material. Then I asked myself the question: what problem does this research solve?

At first two answers came to my mind: I would like to enable others, and myself, to explore their conciseness. People should be able to do this without pumping money in the black market- which I detest. Look at the Mexican cartels and you see why.
The second reason was that I like chemistry and I can't make use of my chemistry degree at the moment. It would simply be fun.

The problem, at least for me, is that I live in Central Europe where I can grow either mushrooms or cacti. Mushrooms you can just eat fine and need no teks. Growing cacti is a pain here and getting reasonable yields is tricky. DMT plants don't grow here either.

So one of the main sources for plants would be tried material from South America. Probably not sustainable. I don't want to damage the rain forest anymore than my life style does anyway.

I think the main reason why we do the teks is because the pharmaceutical industry doesn't supply us with the chemicals as it is forbidden. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to fight against prohibition to get pure, ethical compounds instead of destroying nature? How do we do the exploration of our self until then?

What are your thoughts on this?
 

Live plants. Sustainable, ethically sourced, native American owned.
 
slewb
#2 Posted : 8/12/2017 4:44:45 PM

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Work with acacias? Also grass still needs a lot of research
 
kerelsk
#3 Posted : 8/12/2017 5:59:06 PM

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I've researched a lot on cold-weather psychedelic plants, there aren't too many reliable/commonly used

Acacias as far as I can tell are only somewhat frost hardy. Acuminata which is rather hardy will only take down to -10c for short periods of time, and Central Europe can get pretty cold in the winter from what I understand. Far away from the Atlantic coast and the Gulf Stream.

If you have a chemistry background and want to utilize your knowledge and skill, I would recommend Phalaris grasses. They're definitely trickier than most plants in getting them to express the alkaloids you want, but Phalaris brachystachys and certain strains of P. aquatica have potential. I recently acquired a clone of P. aquatica AQ1 which I hope will yield some good results. See rild's analysis.

The community could use a good 5-MeO-DMT strain of Phalaris, which the genus certainly does express. It would be easier to squeeze a dose of 5-MeO out of low-yielding grass than N,N-DMT. This type of work requires knowledge of breeding grasses and analyzing the alkaloids.

There are also a good many other tryptamine bearing plants around, with lower percentages. The Desmanthus genus I have a lot of hope for, and I'm trying to propagate it in my area. See BundleFlowerPowers experiences with Desmanthus for inspiration.

The Desmodium genus might be worth looking into... I don't know too much about it

Look around the Nexus Wiki for ideas. There are plants out there to be discovered I'm sure.
 
#4 Posted : 8/12/2017 7:07:08 PM
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I'm going to apologize in advance because I know this answer probably isn't going to help the direction of this thread too much, but I've had mimosa root from years back, and at the rate I'm going I highly doubt I'll run out before my life's up [might smoke 3 times a year], same goes for oral preps of dmt/amoi. I have quite a bit of rue seed also, and caapi from years back - which if I do any sort of ayahuasca analogue from now on I'll probably be using rue much more [or permanently] for the maoi, because the caapi I like to save and drink by itself, do small teas for the day, or set aside a small bit for a/b extraction too add to my changa. And I already am growing cacti and have several set aside for prep/ingestion in the near future.

So I think this can partly come down to how frequent someone plans on taking these things.

And yeah I have definitely contributed [in whichever perceivable amount] to the destruction of some of these habitats by having these dried plants [mimosa, caapi], acacia] [many of us have done it to some degree], though after all the backlash and the fact of people who live in these regions showing how these habitats were being affected - it makes you realize if you didn't previously. I'm glad and thankful for what I have left and I 100% plan on making it last my lifetime.

 
obliguhl
#5 Posted : 8/12/2017 7:26:26 PM

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I hope in the future someone will follow up on the idea of creating genetically modified yeast to produce DMT. It would both help in terms of availability and environmental impact. The same goes for research ino Phalaris. But as long as other means of attaining DMT exist, motivation isn't big enough i assume.
 
Auxin
#6 Posted : 8/13/2017 12:19:25 AM

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In europe you can figure out your USDA plant hardiness zone on [This Map] or just google Europe USDA Zone

Lespedeza bicolor will grow in zones 5 to 9 or 10, its yield is reported as highest in fall collected foliage [I've seen 0.25-0.33% cited]. You'll see reference to it also containing a little lespedamine. In published articles lespedamine was found to decompose to DMT and formaldehyde during boiling in water, so it likely wouldnt be an issue. This source is in need of more published study as a DMT source.

Desmanthus illinoensis will grow in zone 4 to 8 or 9. Its a tall plant with big roots that contain DMT. Takes 3-4 years to grow to size.

Desmanthus leptolobus will grow in zone 6 or 7 to 9 or 10. Its a small plant that grows almost flat against the ground, so heavy winter mulching might even let it be grown in colder areas. I'm zone 7a and have never had one die in winter. Its roots contain DMT. Takes 4 years to grow to size. I would suggest growing plants 30 cm apart in rows 60 cm apart, by year 3 it should be solid ground cover but not over crowded.

And then, as mentioned, there are grasses and Acacias with active foliage and twigs that could be brought indoors for winter after trimming them into large bonsai.

Peganum harmala will grow in zone 6 or 7 to 10. [Again, I'm zone 7a and have never had an established plant die.] Ignore everything you read about them needing very dry conditions. The seedlings will not survive the first year without frequent watering and in subsequent years they appreciate moderate watering. Excessive water in winter might be a problem tho, I have no experience there as I get no more than 4 cm of water per month in winter. I arranged mine 60 cm apart in rows 90 cm apart, after several years they are hard to walk between but are not over-crowded. Expect your first real harvest in year 3, tho you might get a small harvest in year 2- I did. Plant the seeds in their permanent locations, alkaline soil may help. Commercial seeds tend to be viable so just scratch a pinch of seeds into each location and keep watered for the first year until they die back to the roots in the fall. You will see the seedlings wilt and suffer if the soil is completely dry when the sun is out. If you try to transplant them drench the transplanted plants with water for two weeks after moving them. Read the threads on harmala alkaloid separation, THH kitchen synthesis, etc. its fun.
 
nen888
#7 Posted : 8/13/2017 2:55:25 AM
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i thank you for thinking DrSeltsam..

it was something i realised a long time ago that there can't be some mass psychedelic awakening without solutions to address increased demand..

with regards to sustainability, with current wider spread practises, with MHRB there is a degree of sustainability as it is already widely grown in plantation (for timber) and the taking of bark does not permanently kill the tree, they resprout, unlike acacias..
the obtaining of unprocessed material by people to do their own extractions, as is the nexus focus, cuts out the middle-men and their profit, hence the 'cartel' factor, and encourages personal use scale..

acacia confusa has largely been available because it's an invasive weed in Hawaii, though that will not last forever if people there don't get on to planting..it is grown in plantation in south-east Asia, as it has some demand in traditional medicine..
all other acacias are at present unsustainable unless grown by people for personal use..

for Europe, and indeed the world, i have long thought that Phalaris is the answer for demand and self-sustainability there..and it's 'native'..it simply needs more research and development..we know that AQ1 is consistent from several tests..and it can be grown in tubs in an apartment..

rather than being in a hurry to 'bring dmt to the masses', as some want, and grab convenient but exhaustible resources, i think those wanting that need to put more time into developing these other sources..that's what i hoped to contribute to here..

also i agree with the mention of genetically modified yeast cultures as the next step up of addressing this issue..there has been a little work on this.
and i agree with a focus towards decriminalisation, the chemistry world could help this issue immediately

people destroying nature to supposedly expand consciousness though is both sad and ironic, and somehow self defeating
 
DrSeltsam
#8 Posted : 8/13/2017 10:18:34 AM

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Thanks everyone for the very friendly replies and all the advice you have me Smile

As it isn't nice polarizing, I might have failed to convey my main message: this is not a problem of chemistry or botany. This is a political problem. If your aim is to bring these components to the masses we need to legalize them. Once they are legal, the supply problem is gone as the compounds are very easy to synthesize.

I had some offline discussions yesterday and I might just give up to make the world better (legalization). Living in my own world world will work as long as these techniques are under the radar of law enforcement. Once the teks go mainstream we will face the same problems
 
obliguhl
#9 Posted : 8/13/2017 11:02:05 AM

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Quote:
this is not a problem of chemistry or botany. This is a political problem


I believe investing yourself in legalisation movements is a waste of energy.
Your efforts are only going to feed them. No western culture is anything close to legalizing these substances. It's better to forget what others think and not fight their opinions as stupid as they may seem. It's better to work on something constructive, such as a better, less risky infrastructure of supplying these drugs. In this way, laws will make themselves obsolete as they become uninforcable. In turn, more and more people might recognize the value in psychedelicsd, fostering a slow and steady cultural shift therefore enabling legalization.

In that way, it is indeed a problem of chemistry and/or botany.
 
#10 Posted : 8/13/2017 1:48:34 PM
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Yeah, I think it comes down ultimately to allowing yourself the funds, space and know-how to have a small sustainable grow of some sort. Even if you live in a colder climate and would need to move some stuff indoors I still think that even if that were the case that it shouldn't pose too much of an issue imho [if you have these resources available for yourself].

And say you had everything to get going - say mimosa hostilis for example, I don't see why you couldn't keep it trained/pruned back indoors [possibly in a tent], design a pot/raised system to allow somewhat easy access to the roots for cultivation later on down the line, or possibly doing a form of air-layering for above ground root development [there's an older thread on here regarding air-layering for cultivation of roots].
 
obliguhl
#11 Posted : 8/13/2017 2:25:41 PM

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The problem with having to grow stuff is, that it binds you to a place. This makes you vulnerable to all sorts of powers. Yeasts would allow for a more location independant approach to living as the turnaround time to produce DMT is much shorter. Personally, i wouldn't want to settle on the countryside to farm mimosa or phalaris. That doesn't make it a bad option for possibly many people but it can't be the end all be all.
 
#12 Posted : 8/13/2017 2:33:28 PM
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obliguhl wrote:
The problem with having to grow stuff is, that it binds you to a place. This makes you vulnerable to all sorts of powers. Yeasts would allow for a more location independant approach to living as the turnaround time to produce DMT is much shorter. Personally, i wouldn't want to settle on the countryside to farm mimosa or phalaris. That doesn't make it a bad option for possibly many people but it can't be the end all be all.


Very true, I agree that it shouldn't be the end-all-be-all, I'm just suggesting this if the person has the means. And I mean an indoor setup/tent can be mobile and be moved and re-setup whereever, it's really not that much work to get set up I don't think.

The yeast would be an incredible way to go about it for sure, though I wonder how soon a methodology like that would be available for the common kitchen chemist? I remember checking out that thread on yeast/DMT, forget what was said in there, but man that'd be incredible. Definitely would be interested in that if/when it becomes applicable.
 
obliguhl
#13 Posted : 8/13/2017 3:16:25 PM

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There are two ways this can go in my opinion:

1. Genetically engineering or breeding of frost hardy plants that are similar to the weed superstrains we have today. But we've got them only because there is a billion $/€ industry behind + a huge enthusiast community. DMT has neither. So in order to make this a reality, someone would probably dedicate his life to breeding phalaris, trying to create a strain that is resilient, grows quickly and contains a ton of DMT. Imagine a grass that contains 25% DMT? Even quick, small scale grows would become feasible.

2. Engineering DMT Yeasts.
But:

- Is it possible to find someone with a lab to do this?
- Is it possible to make a strain that yields decent amounts of DMT?
- Would it be possible for the layman to keep the strain alive & multiply it?
- Would someone who is actually able to do this forgo academical credit in favour of underground distribution of the strain?

They already have strains that can produce THC and Opiates. Yet, they are not available to the general public. Who can guarantee, that the same won't happen to DMT producing microorganisms?

Even if there'd be someone who'd be willing to attempt this...

- Who would finance his or her work?

A structured effort seems to be needed to make this a reality. It would need to start by answering the most basic questions. Because if it is impossible to do in 2017 due to lack of resources, technology etc its back to mimosa.
 
Legarto Rey
#14 Posted : 8/13/2017 4:23:47 PM
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I'm in complete concurrence with everything posted. How awesome would it be to have "legal" access to professionally prepped/synthesized psychedelics? I'm not particularly optimistic. As Nick Sand so elegantly articulated, the very nature of these birthright mind states is anathema to "official" sanctioning. Power structures NEVER support endeavor that exposes their artificial underpinnings. The genuine, truthful and profoundly religious revelations had(at least potentially) through wizened use of entheogens are not in the realm of human law or culture. They are by definition, antisocial, as they engender the understanding that "reality" is somehow gifted/granted/allowed by the Source, moment to moment, to every aspect of being, including humanity. They inform us that NOBODY is "minding that store", ala T McKenna. They remind us that not only life, but the very matrix upon/through which it fluxes is trans-personal/linguistic/cultural. The idea that this experience can be "sanctioned" by another, or culture generally, is an absurdity.

My sense is that this feral gnosis, obviously an aspect of our fundamental composition(body/mind), will always be guarded by TPTB, it's too "radical".

 
DrSeltsam
#15 Posted : 8/14/2017 11:13:51 AM

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obliguhl wrote:
Quote:
this is not a problem of chemistry or botany. This is a political problem


I believe investing yourself in legalisation movements is a waste of energy.
Your efforts are only going to feed them. No western culture is anything close to legalizing these substances. It's better to forget what others think and not fight their opinions as stupid as they may seem. It's better to work on something constructive, such as a better, less risky infrastructure of supplying these drugs. In this way, laws will make themselves obsolete as they become uninforcable. In turn, more and more people might recognize the value in psychedelicsd, fostering a slow and steady cultural shift therefore enabling legalization.

In that way, it is indeed a problem of chemistry and/or botany.


People never believed that same sex marriage could happen - in many countries it did. If you never try you can't win, can you?

The point is: what we do here with our teks works because it is so underground. Once this gets more mainstream, law enforcement will shut it down. I work at a major player in the online market which does all kind of big data stuff to get insights. Once law enforcement wants to find you, it will. When I talked to my friends what I have done the usual answer was: how come that law enforcement does not catch you? This would be so trivial to set up.

I guess it is fair to say: I don't care about society in general. I care about my private stuff. I don't condone anyone for this. I'm not sure if this is the best way for me...
 
JustAnotherHuman
#16 Posted : 8/14/2017 12:37:28 PM

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I believe legalisation is the answer. If the legal barriers are removed, then everything changes. A lot of the entheogenic plants we know and love can be grown very easily on a large scale. And sustainably. And, of course, then people can do breeding to increase potency and whatever.

Now, as to whether legalisation will actually happen, I tend to be moar optimistic about it then some of the people here.Big grin I think with all the scientific research going on, and the fact that public opinion is changing, are good signs for the future.

As for the whole GMO thing, I'm also very wary of GMOs. I wouldn't ingest anything genetically engineered, but that's just me.Very happy

I totally agree with what tatt said about small scale, sustainable grows. That's all we can do right now, and it's the only way to be sustainable, imo. I think growing your own is for sure the way to go.

The scientific side of me does like the whole GMO yeast idea tho. Like I said before, I'm wary of all that, but the idea sounds cool anyway.
JustAnotherHuman is a fictional character. Everything said by this character should be regarded as completely fabricated.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."-Benjamin Franklin.
 
obliguhl
#17 Posted : 8/14/2017 1:12:43 PM

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Quote:
People never believed that same sex marriage could happen - in many countries it did. If you never try you can't win, can you?

The point is: what we do here with our teks works because it is so underground. Once this gets more mainstream, law enforcement will shut it down. I work at a major player in the online market which does all kind of big data stuff to get insights. Once law enforcement wants to find you, it will. When I talked to my friends what I have done the usual answer was: how come that law enforcement does not catch you? This would be so trivial to set up.

I guess it is fair to say: I don't care about society in general. I care about my private stuff. I don't condone anyone for this. I'm not sure if this is the best way for me...


This is why it is so important to structure this in a way that makes it very expensive, if not impossible to shut down. How can law enforcement track the sale of yeasts that smell like yeasts, behave like yeasts but, to the insider...is just ..well, magical? Razz

I have no doubt they can pinpoint people using big data and put you on some sort of watchlist.

Probably already happening right now. But that doesn't mean they can put you away for being an advocate of psychedelics...at least not yet!

As for legalisation: I'm not saying it will never happen. I remember in the 90s, there were a lot of people in germany who were anti-gay. It was very much a matter of public debate & gay sex was eventually fully legalized (before you had to be over 21 to have gay sex). Now, almost 30 years later, they have legalized gay marriage. The process is a slow one, and i'm not sure we are 30 years away from legalization...possibly even more. Decriminalization is next and could happen ..maybe within 15 years?

I can imagine to still live once full legalisation is here, but i might be in elderly care then.

I advocate for working on what has an immediate impact and work on changing public opinion once there is fertile ground.

Would you try to plant a seed on frosted soil?

Better to build your own greenhouse, now.

And as for the GMO argument: Once you extract the DMT from the brew, it is just that...DMT.
You don't have to drink the brew you've created.

 
EntreNous
#18 Posted : 8/14/2017 2:35:46 PM

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I always have to overcome a degree of anxiety to hit the post button. I'm fairly new to this platform and am maybe over-concerned with approval. Anyway, the OP asked for thoughts so here are some of mine.


I in no way advocate violating any laws. However, It should be pointed out that everyone does break the law, one way or the other, far more frequently than most will admit.

In a very real way the evolution of the DMT community parallels that of the marijuana community. While the substances themselves are (or have been historically) illegal there are growing grassroots and mainstream science bases of advocacy for both substances. I grew up north of San Francisco. I can say from experience that it was the "black market guerilla growers" that created the environment that led to legalization of medical and recreational marijuana in California and across the US. While there was some involvement of violent southern cartels, this had more to do with economic factors related to prohibition than ready access to marijuana and is almost non existant now. So how did we get to the point where marijuana was legalized? We flooded society with weed, that's how. We swapped seeds, traded clones and most importantly we grew, grew, grew the stuff. Once a majority of voters knew a potsmoker personally, and recognized that the existing stereotypes were false, legalization followed quickly.

As hypothetical users of illegal substances we accept that we are theoretically operating outside of the current legality. We weigh the risks and make our choice. I may get in trouble for saying this but if we truly want to advance the use of DMT in the general public (something I'm not entirely sold on) we need to EMBRACE OUR STATUS AS OUTLAWS (hypothetically). As my dad used to say, "if they're gonna call you a rat, be the sleekest, cleverest, longest tailed rat you can be." (dad was a research type, loved his rats)

It only takes dirt, sun, water and seed to grow marijuana OR DMT containing plants. Next time you pick up a sack of legal DMT containing plant material, get some seeds too. Whether it's a grass, shrub or tree really doesn't matter, as long as it produces tryptamines. A little research goes a long way. Select species from similar temperate zones to yours and dedicate yourself to establishing a small patch of DMT containing plants in your area. I might advocate a "johnny appleseed" type approach. Look at your local plants with fresh eyes. It was quite a surprise to realize there was a large "****** ********" growing outside our local courthouse and more growing in some city and county parks. At some point the county chose the drought tolerant species for it's parks and admin areas. Go figure. Those who know what they are looking for will nearly always find it.

Clearly the members of DMT Nexus are not meek, starved, ineffective lab mice. We are an innovative group of longtails and the work we are doing allows all who are interested to have the tools to utilize tryptamines and other compounds personally. It's possible that "the government" may mobilize against us in the future but we should keep in mind that all they need to do to see what we are up to is to look. And personally, I'm positive they look quite frequently. Short of passing sweeping new legislation that will only cause more determined resistance among DMT users (like the 1980-90's "pot wars" waged by county, state and federal agencies in Northern California did among marijuana users, leading directly to decriminalization) there is really very little that can be effectively done about someone planting shrubs or grasses or doing extractions at home and introducing others to DMT.

My hypothetical points:
*If you are already a rat, work toward mastery of rathood. (consider how you can personally increase the amount of DMT awareness and availability in your community; be an ethical rebel)
* Sustainable sourcing is key. Grow locally.
* Advocate locally. Talk to people about DMT. Spare them the trip reports, express the positive effects DMT has on you personally but don't expect to make any converts by discussing being overpowered by oppressive alien mantids right off the bat.
* Worry less about what society may do to you and more about what you may do for society regarding advocating DMT use.
*Regarding the OP's desire for "pure, ethical compounds" for synthesis. It's far less hazardous and resource intensive to extract from a plant using common food grade chems than to isolate and produce precursors from scratch in the lab then perform a synthesis. I pray the day never comes that I need to turn to big pharma for a DMT prescription from a state licensed medical shill. The layman is perfectly capable of quality extractions and there is absolutely no reason that tryptamines cannot be sourced sustainably, it only takes personal effort.

* Political solutions are downstream from social norms. Once there is a larger public awareness and plentiful and sustainable sources of DMT containing plants for the masses legalization will be a moot point.


I recognize that my hypothetical opinions are somewhat counter to the general desire to keep the whole issue hush-hush. I respect the Nexus policy of discretion and in fact when I became a new member the first thing I did was remove all drug related content from my youtube channel. I strongly support increasing awareness and availability of all substances and our freedom to use them as we see fit IN ACCORDANCE WITH LOCAL LAW.



Suggested reading:
*Robert C. O'Brien: Mrs. Frisbee and the Rats of NIMH. (one of the most enlightened "children's books" I have read)
* The Collected Works of Thomas Paine
Be regular and orderly in your life, that you may be violent and original in your work. -Flaubert-

till next time , ahskě:nę hę ( Peace)
 
downwardsfromzero
#19 Posted : 8/14/2017 10:41:13 PM

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Quote:
*Robert C. O'Brien: Mrs. Frisbee and the Rats of NIMH. (one of the most enlightened "children's books" I have read)
Hey, I read that too! It was in our school library. I thought it was a really cool book, thanks for reminding me.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
spacexplorer
#20 Posted : 8/15/2017 5:33:18 AM

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DrSeltsam wrote:
Dear fellow members,

I had something on my mind that I would like to share with you to get your thoughts. I was thinking to dedicate some more time to research different ways to extract or purity compounds from plant material. Then I asked myself the question: what problem does this research solve?

At first two answers came to my mind: I would like to enable others, and myself, to explore their conciseness. People should be able to do this without pumping money in the black market- which I detest. Look at the Mexican cartels and you see why.
The second reason was that I like chemistry and I can't make use of my chemistry degree at the moment. It would simply be fun.

The problem, at least for me, is that I live in Central Europe where I can grow either mushrooms or cacti. Mushrooms you can just eat fine and need no teks. Growing cacti is a pain here and getting reasonable yields is tricky. DMT plants don't grow here either.

So one of the main sources for plants would be tried material from South America. Probably not sustainable. I don't want to damage the rain forest anymore than my life style does anyway.

I think the main reason why we do the teks is because the pharmaceutical industry doesn't supply us with the chemicals as it is forbidden. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to fight against prohibition to get pure, ethical compounds instead of destroying nature? How do we do the exploration of our self until then?

What are your thoughts on this?


Hmmm good idea, to see synthesized dmt in every store being sold as freely as alcohol would be nice. Where can we start the fight against prohibition?
 
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