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Harmine, harmaline and THH from Syrian Rue. Verification and finetuning of the VDS-protocols Options
 
RhythmSpring
#481 Posted : 4/5/2019 6:05:05 AM

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Excuse me for my ignorance, but if you wanted to convert harmaline to THH, wouldn't simply boiling it do the trick? I thought that's what happened in brews in which the Syrian Rue (or Ayahuasca vine for that matter) was boiled.
From the unspoken
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Live plants. Sustainable, ethically sourced, native American owned.
 
GordoTEK
#482 Posted : 4/5/2019 12:31:38 PM

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RhythmSpring wrote:
Excuse me for my ignorance, but if you wanted to convert harmaline to THH, wouldn't simply boiling it do the trick? I thought that's what happened in brews in which the Syrian Rue (or Ayahuasca vine for that matter) was boiled.


The short answer is no. Water stays water (H2O) even as steam after evaporation. It just goes from liquid form to gaseous form. If you want to separate the constituent Hydrogen and Oxygen in it then you'd have to perform some type of reaction or electrolysis which is the process of passing a direct current between two electrodes separately dipped in water with some common salt dissolved in it.

As for "what happens in traditional ayahuasca brews" - I think this is still somewhat undocumented (?). We know that the brew is acidic, that might be a clue, we know that the brewing takes place over several days at a rolling boil type heat level, and we know that it is usually done in large metal kettles (that may be another clue).

Look at Callaway, J. C.; Brito, Glacus S.; Neves, Edison S. (June 2005). "Phytochemical analyses of Banisteriopsis caapi and Psychotria viridis". Journal of Psychoactive Drugs. 37 (2): 145–150. doi:10.1080/02791072.2005.10399795. PMID 16149327

Now that I study this paper more, it seems that there isn't enough harmaline in caapi to account for the THH levels in ayahuasca if they were to come from harmaline reduction alone, this is probably why Callaway speculated that the THH in ayahuasca was coming from a harmine reduction - but we know through experimentation that harmine doesn't reduce (or at least not easily?), so that isn't a likely explanation either (unless & until someone can demonstrate how it happens). Maybe the harmine just isn't as efficiently extracted from the caapi vine as the THH? I don't know, its an interesting topic that deserves further research... Another interesting thought is that brewing style may play an important role, if you go back a couple pages, I posted 3 alkaloid analysis that various groups have done on ayahuasca brews, in the data set that Endlessness provided, the THH levels were significantly lower than the other 2 sources, in his data, the ratios actually very closely match the AVERAGE ratios found in caapi that has been examined - so it seems no reductions or uneven extraction was happening in those brews - the key question is why? Was something done differently in the brewing process? Then again - as Callaway documented, sometimes caapi vines contain almost no THH, so maybe it was just natural variation or a different source of the vines in that case that account for this. Maybe the other groups have over many years, zeroed in on vine sources that are high in THH precisely because the subjective effects were better - this is probably the most likely scenario (no reductions are happening in ayahuasca brewing). Now that I think about it, there is some further evidence of this documented in the following phenomenal paper (thanks tregar for bringing this paper to my attention):

Unraveling the Mystery of the Origin of Ayahuasca by Native American Gayle Highpine

The relevant portion here is (emphasis is mine):

Quote:
Ayahuasca vine is not visionary in the same way as DMT. Visions from vine-only brews are shadowy, monochromatic, like silhouettes, or curling smoke, or clouds moving across the night sky. It is because their visions are usually monochromatic that vines are classified by the color of vision they produce: white, black, blue, red (in my experience, dark maroon). Snakes, the most common vision on Ayahuasca, are considered the manifest spirit of the vine.9 Vine visions can be hard to see; in fact, the “visions” may not be visual at all, but auditory or somatic or intuitive. But the vine carries the content of the message, the teaching, and the insight. The leaf helps illuminate the content, but the teachings are credited to the vine. Vine visions are “frequently associated with writing, to a code that is present in visions…or in the ‘books’ where the spirits keep the secrets of the forest.” (Calavia Saez 2011:135). The vine is The Teacher, The Healer, The Guide. The purpose of drinking Ayahuasca is to receive the message the vine imparts. This is why it is the vine, not the leaf, that is classified by the type of vision it gives. “For them the vine is, in truth, a living guide, a friend, a paternal authority” (Weiskopf 2005:104).


My point being - the vine is far more important than most researchers have previously recognized, and the natives have done far more sorting and classification of the vine than likely anyone outside of their culture previously realized. I'm thinking it is highly likely that a natural selection of sorts has been happening, for vines that are high in THH, and possibly even a selection for vines with equal amounts of harmine and THH but low harmaline. Now that I think this all through, I wish I had mentioned this in the video...

-Gordo


 
Aum_Shanti
#483 Posted : 4/5/2019 12:58:58 PM
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Quote:
Unraveling the Mystery of the Origin of Ayahuasca by Native American Gayle Highpine


That is a super interesting article to read. Thanks for linking.

Quote:
possibly even a selection for vines with equal amounts of harmine and THH but low harmaline.


But don't we have some analysis' of such vines, used by indigenous people in these rituals e.g. from Ott and Co?

But I would also tend think, that the non noble metal pot plays a chemical role.
I claim not that this is the truth. As this is just what got manifested into my mind at the current position in time on this physical plane. So please feel not offended by anything I say.
 
GordoTEK
#484 Posted : 4/5/2019 2:54:59 PM

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Yes, I linked (above) to one paper: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1080/02791072.2005.10399795
Note that the standard deviation for harmine and THH is huge, but not so for harmaline which is consistently low. Also we don't know the full background on how the samples were collected, did they just get random vine cuttings? Were there some that the natives considered "better" than others? He noted that two samples were extremely low in alkaloids, these were from older plants (so age of the plant may also be an important factor).
 
RhythmSpring
#485 Posted : 4/5/2019 4:06:39 PM

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GordoTEK wrote:
RhythmSpring wrote:
Excuse me for my ignorance, but if you wanted to convert harmaline to THH, wouldn't simply boiling it do the trick? I thought that's what happened in brews in which the Syrian Rue (or Ayahuasca vine for that matter) was boiled.


The short answer is no. Water stays water (H2O) even as steam after evaporation. It just goes from liquid form to gaseous form. If you want to separate the constituent Hydrogen and Oxygen in it then you'd have to perform some type of reaction or electrolysis which is the process of passing a direct current between two electrodes separately dipped in water with some common salt dissolved in it.


What? What does separating water molecules have to do with the harmaline->THH conversion? I'm still confused.

And about the unexpectedly high amounts of THH in Ayahuasca brews, I believe some THH is already present in raw Ayahuasca vine, though of course levels vary.
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Auxin
#486 Posted : 4/6/2019 10:28:42 PM

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Harmaline needs a reducing agent to convert to THH, and water is not one.
There are a few theories to account for the increase in THH content of brews upon prolonged boiling.
- THH may be more stable than harmine or harmaline and so is relatively enriched as the others break down.
- Ascorbate and polyphenols (including tannins) are reducing agents and boiling with harmaline for long enough might reduce the harmaline.
- I remember in a few Terence McKenna videos/audio recordings he was emphatic that to make a really good brew the plants were subject to prolonged boiling (with the local acidic water) specifically in an aluminum pot. Aluminum is a reducing agent like zinc and prolonged boiling of harmaline with aluminum and acid should produce THH. Aluminum certainly does get digested by the brewing, its well known that boiling tomatoes in an aluminum pot will dissolve some of the pot.
 
RhythmSpring
#487 Posted : 4/6/2019 11:32:55 PM

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Auxin wrote:
Harmaline needs a reducing agent to convert to THH, and water is not one.

Do you mean to say that water + heat ( + time) does NOT convert harmaline to THH?
From the unspoken
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GordoTEK
#488 Posted : 4/7/2019 12:35:59 AM

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RhythmSpring wrote:
Auxin wrote:
Harmaline needs a reducing agent to convert to THH, and water is not one.

Do you mean to say that water + heat ( + time) does NOT convert harmaline to THH?


Compare the harmaline molecule to the THH molecule. Notice those 2 extra hydrogen atoms? Those have to come from some where, so where do you envision them coming from with just water and harmaline?
 
RhythmSpring
#489 Posted : 4/7/2019 1:09:56 AM

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GordoTEK wrote:
RhythmSpring wrote:
Auxin wrote:
Harmaline needs a reducing agent to convert to THH, and water is not one.

Do you mean to say that water + heat ( + time) does NOT convert harmaline to THH?


Compare the harmaline molecule to the THH molecule. Notice those 2 extra hydrogen atoms? Those have to come from some where, so where do you envision them coming from with just water and harmaline?


Free-floating hydrogen ions in the water?
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GordoTEK
#490 Posted : 4/8/2019 4:53:04 AM

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Think that through, if water could serve as the reducing agent here, then shouldn't the harmaline have reduced when you were extracting it in boiling water from syrian rue seeds in the first place?
 
endlessness
#491 Posted : 4/8/2019 11:55:42 AM

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There have been mentions of this effect of the conversion happening during extended boiling. Also when testing pure caapi it often has very little THH but when testing ayahuasca there is a lot of THH, which also points towards that direction. But in the papers where this effect is mentioned there is very little info on exact measures taken, how much of this reduction happened, how long it took etc.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=31699

This could be easily tested if someone did controlled tests, getting a sample of the caapi itself, then doing extensive boiling for many hours and getting samples at every, say, 30 mins, and then sending all the different samples to analysis. If someone is willing to do the experiment, I can help getting the samples tested.

As GordoTEK asked, it is something to wonder why hasn't more harmaline reduced to THH, why in the case of rue brews only small amounts of THH are found. Maybe ayahuasca has something else in it that helps the reduction that isn't in rue?

Anyways it would be nice to test this all.
 
RhythmSpring
#492 Posted : 4/8/2019 2:14:32 PM

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GordoTEK wrote:
Think that through, if water could serve as the reducing agent here, then shouldn't the harmaline have reduced when you were extracting it in boiling water from syrian rue seeds in the first place?

To echo what endlessness is saying, what makes you think that it didn't?
From the unspoken
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ijahdan
#493 Posted : 4/8/2019 4:53:30 PM

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I also wondered about these analyses of raw caapi vs brews. It seems to make sense that pure water cannot reduce harmaline, because it is not a reducing agent, but, as endlessness says, there may be something else in caapi which does reduce the harmaline during prolonged boiling. There are also a lot of other chemicals in Amazonian river water compared to typical tap water, ie minerals and chemicals leached from the surrounding vegetation. I read somewhere that this river water has quite a low pH too.

Maybe someone could do the experiment endlessness suggested, using pure water and then using their local river water, which would possibly be closer to Amazon water than tap water. The same experiments could also be done with rue, but of course rue might not contain the magic reduction agents which caapi may or may not contain.

Many variables. Wish I had the time.

Aluminium cooking pots could be a factor, but these are a fairly recent invention. I imagine the Ayahuasceros in the past used earthenware vessels.
 
Jagube
#494 Posted : 4/8/2019 5:22:38 PM

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ijahdan wrote:
Maybe someone could do the experiment endlessness suggested, using pure water and then using their local river water, which would possibly be closer to Amazon water than tap water.

Not necessarily. Rivers vary widely in their composition, even in the Amazon you have white and black waters.

Also, some rivers are so polluted you wouldn't even want to swim in them.
 
ijahdan
#495 Posted : 4/8/2019 5:45:29 PM

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Thanks for that info Jagube. Just had a quick look and it seems the blackwater type is acidic and contains much higher levels of aluminium than whitewater, so that could be a factor. Any idea which type is used for traditional brews?
 
tregar
#496 Posted : 4/10/2019 1:13:42 AM

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Great post Gordotek! (#482 post) & endlesness! (#491) This is not known by many, but Dr. Shulgin once wrote in the Entheogen Review that vitamin C is a "hydrogen doner". Is it possible it will aid the reduction of harmaline to thh in the brew's made by the UDV, Santo Daime, etc? Professor8 once mentioned that he had success using vitamin C to help do this, if you go back several years and read his posts here. I have no idea if this works or not. I would think it would be too weak, but know nothing, so who knows.

Interesting ijhadan and jagube on the river water, as we know that Amazonian river water is "slightly acidic". Good point Rhythmspring on plain water.

Caapi strain variety as theorized above is likely cause for higher natural tetrahydroharmine amounts. However, it is the 2nd largest alkaloid in caapi. Really good expensive lab equipment is needed to test for THH (like Dr. Callaway used) otherwise it will likely show up as additional harmine...and you will barely see any tetrahydroharmine at all in caapi...no amateur equipment, this is important.

THH is the "coffee of the harmalas" as ron69 used to state, it probably also has around the same serotonin reuptake power as ibogaine, mescaline, or acid thanks to published receptorome data, but we will never know as no scientist has ever tackled thh receptorome data for thh at SERT (only ibogaine). As Dr. Shulgin once stated "research on thh is imperative!" but looks like it will never be done, the forgotten alkaloid. Ibogaine and THH likely both work thru SERT (explained below) to block serotonin (remember dmt can not block serotonin on it's own, it lacks this important quality).

If THH binds anything like ibogaine to SERT (and it is most likely very similar) then 150mg of tetrahydroharmine is probably subjectively equivalent to around 150mcg of acid in terms of both mental coffee like stimulation and serotonin reuptake inhibition strength. When the brew is combined with around say 30g of hawaiian psychotria (equivalent to average 60mg of leaf actives) then a rough strength equivalent could be postulated for the brew in comparison to Hoffman's elixir.

Ibogaine binds directly to the serotonin transporter (SERT), so it does not have to target the 5-ht1a substrate pathway. This could be likely what happens with tetrahydroharmine, as THH and ibogaine have similar basic beta-carboline structures.

Thomas S. Ray's 2010 receptorome study shows a value of 3.57 at SERT for Ibogaine (4.00 is max). Ibogaine has been shown to inhibit serotonin transporter (SERT) noncompetitively, in contrast to all other known inhibitors, which are competitive with substrate. LSD has a value of 3.73 at 5-ht1a substrate, and mescaline has a value of 3.61 at 5-ht1a substrate, dmt on it's own has been shown in two studies to totally lack a value at 5-ht1a (0.00), and thus requires either thh in caapi or snuff components to block the reuptake of serotonin, important teamwork going on.

Thomas S. Ray Receptorome study, 4.00=max, 0.00=min.
Quote:
Ibogaine: 4.00 Sigma2, 3.57 SERT, 3.02 DAT, 3.01 NMDA, 2.88 KOR, 2.67 MOR, 2.55 Sigma1, 2.22 M3, 2.16 5ht2a, 1.96 M1, 1.72 M2, 1.47 D3;

0.00: DOR, 5ht1b, 5ht1d, 5ht1a, H1, 5ht2c, D2, D1, Beta1; ND: Alpha2C, D5, D4, Alpha2B, Imidazoline1, NET, Alpha2A, 5ht5a, 5ht6, 5ht7, Alpha1B, 5ht1e, 5ht2b, M4, M5, Alpha1A, H2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, Beta2

ibogaine (inhibits both serotonin and dopamine reuptake transporters, it is an SDRI or serotonin & dopamine reuptake inhibitor)

tetrahydroharmine (serotonin reuptake inhibitor, it is an SRI)

2011 Thomas S. Ray study: Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min
Quote:
LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00
(these serotonin filters/gates/barriers/doors make up >80% of brain 5-ht & are broken down when 5-ht1a is agonized)

As mentioned back on page 22, Real life examples that occur when serotonin filters are broken down at 5-ht1a (or SERT is agonized by ibogaine or THH) AND the psychedelic molecule works in the place of serotonin at the other 20% of brain 5-ht (everything that is not 5-ht1a, example: 30 grams of hawaiian psychotria brew which contains on average 60mg of actives): music sounds better, infinite beauty is easily perceived, feelings of universal eternal Love, spiritual things and qualities take on a significance that is utterly stupefying, etc.

Dmt by itself has been found in the Receptorome study to not block serotonin...while the following traditional team players have been found to strongly block serotonin: 5-ho-dmt in Amazonian snuffs, 5-meo-dmt in Amazonian snuffs and the 2nd largest alkaloid in caapi (thh or tetrahydroharmine). All 3 are thus anti-serotonin, and no surprise: traditional.

Why traditional Ayahuasca or snuff's are different as compared to the Western invented (not traditional) straight dmt, which only agonizes 20% of brain 5-ht:

Brief interesting concluding remarks from a few authors who describe personally perceived subjective differences:

professor8 (here at this forum, see his vitamin c experiments: 11/1/2010):
Quote:
Tetrahydroharmine has the ability to raise your vibration in a most powerful, yet subtle way. It brings a crystalline prismy texture to spice and adds a super clear watery dimension to Aya, like looking down through 10meters of shimmering Caribbean Sea on clear blue day.

It brings a dimension of pure light to the entheogenic experience and encourages entities & intelligences of only the Highest Order. If one is not accustomed to perceiving these experiences with a spiritual perspective most of the nuances & subtleties THH brings on are overlooked and remain unseen and one would better enjoy Harmaline as a house painter chooses a roller over a brush, its about preference & choice.

Quote from TIHKAL by Dr. Shulgin "More studies on tetrahydroharmine are absolutely imperative."

Trips (from this forum here on 12/2/2011):
Quote:
As to how the THH altered the experience -> I find rue extract+DMT to be very similar to mushrooms. I found the THH added to the rue+DMT to shift the experience to a state much closer to that provided by LSD. It was more clear, more energetic, more euphoric, more focused, and when confusion struck it was definitely more "acid-like".

The world is moving in the direction of the Left Brain: technology and science. What the world needs is to move in the direction of Right Brain development: empathy, spirituality, connectedness. Compounds like tetrahydroharmine in Caapi could be said to improve emotional intelligence. Is this component of caapi a smart-nutrient for the right side of the brain? you be the judge.

Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 428:
Quote:
My experience with smoked DMT was qualitatively different from the realms and beings ayahuasca introduced me to. For whereas the ayahuasca worlds seemed rich, luxurious, and abundant in the transformations of organic and supernatural life, DMT brought me to a world--or to some aspect of a world--that appeared from the outset to be highly artificial, constructed, inorganic, and in essence technological.

Daniel Pinchbeck, "Breaking Open the Head":
Quote:
For many people, Ayahuasca-a slowed-down low-res interface of the DMT flash-seems to convey strong messages from the natural world, of nature as sentient energy and spirit matter, of the need to protect the planet we have been given. Ayahuasca is my favorite entheogen.

Yage whispers that human beings are meant to be gardeners of this reality, journeyers, storytellers and singers, weavers of the sacred. DMT, on the other hand, conveys no overt human or humane message.

Gayle Highpine, "Unraveling the Mystery of the Origin of Ayahuasca":
Quote:
The leaves were Ayahuasca’s “helpers,” I was told, and their purpose was to “brighten and clarify” the visions. The vine is like a cave, and the leaf is like a torch you use to see what is inside the cave. The vine is like a book, and the leaf is like the candle you use to read the book. The vine is like a snowy television set, and the leaf helps to tune in the picture. There was a subtle attitude that the need for strong leaf was the sign of a beginner: An experienced ayahuasquero could see the visions even in low light

Ayahuasca vine is not visionary in the same way as DMT. The leaf helps illuminate the content, but the teachings are credited to the vine. Vine visions are “frequently associated with writing, to a code that is present in visions…or in the ‘books’ where the spirits keep the secrets of the forest.” The vine is The Teacher, The Healer, The Guide. The purpose of drinking Ayahuasca is to receive the message the vine imparts. This is why it is the vine, not the leaf, that is classified by the type of vision it gives. “For them the vine is, in truth, a living guide, a friend, a paternal authority”.

Patrick Lundborg, "Psychedelia", page 61:
Quote:
A traditional saying among Ayahuasqueros is that the jungle vine brings powerful realistic visions, but that the chacruna brings light to these visions. According to the view of Western research, this is not the case; essentially the entire psycho-activity resides with the chacruna leaves DMT content.

Ayahuasca researcher Luis Eduardo Luna recently observed that when surveying tribal lore praising the jungle vine, he could find no traces of similar mythology around the two most common plant admixtures; psychotria viridis or diplpterys cabrerana, even though these DMT plants to a Westerner would appear much more important than the harmala alkaloids of the B. caapi liana.

Graham st. John, "Mystery School in Hyperspace: A Cultural History of DMT", see his interview at Reality Sandwich:
Quote:
Halfway thru the interview, Graham recites an interesting quote from an Ayahuasquero who gives his insight into dmt alone vs Ayahuasca.

69ron:
Quote:
DMT used alone, produces an intense visual experience, often very chaotic and fast moving, and quite amazing to watch. The visions of DMT alone usually lack meaningful content. The DMT visions are often just constantly morphing colors and shapes. Most of it makes absolutely no sense. Rarely will the visuals present to you a full blown dream with people, places, a story line, etc. But this does sometimes happen. But usually you just get a bunch of bazaar visions that are difficult to understand.

When combined, as in ayahuasca, the harmalas brings a dreamy quality to the DMT experience that makes it more like one is experiencing an actual dream, not just a bunch of fancy colors. With the two together, you have the visuals of DMT, plus the dream content of the harmalas. The harmalas are the boss here in this combination if used in ayahuasca proportions where the harmalas are not just used as an MAOI but is used specifically to allow dream consciousness to be entered by the user. DMT is just an additive used to increase the visual portion of the harmala induced dreams.

Authentic Ayahuasca, high in harmine, thh & harmaline, and low on DMT, is like entering a full blown 3D dream with dream characters, storylines, etc. This can be a life changing experience. It’s more like sitting in a theater for several hours absorbing a story that’s meaningful because its about you. You leave with memories of places, things, people, etc., and possibly a new view on life.

"Articulations" by Julian Palmer (bottom of page 77):
Quote:
It came to my attention after an embarrassing number of years, that taking freebase crystal DMT orally was not as potent, colourful, or clear as taking the equivalent amount of DMT in a tea that was brewed from the plant (example: hawaiian psychotria). For many years, I couldn't see how there could be a difference, but after doing some comparisons, it was obvious that the tea was much better, and the experiences resulting from the crystalline extract were inferior.

You could take twice or even three times as much DMT crystal as the equivalent in brew, and the experience from the crystal would never be as bright or full as that from the tea. Why could this be?
He answers his own question over the many paragraphs thereafter.

In his new book "How Soon is Now?" Daniel Pinchbeck mentions that Ayahuasca is his favorite, same here.

James Oroc:
Quote:
Entheogens are truly windows to the sacred, and not merely curiosities that somehow trick and confuse our mechanical consciousness.
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
GordoTEK
#497 Posted : 4/11/2019 2:35:17 PM

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RhythmSpring wrote:
GordoTEK wrote:
Think that through, if water could serve as the reducing agent here, then shouldn't the harmaline have reduced when you were extracting it in boiling water from syrian rue seeds in the first place?

To echo what endlessness is saying, what makes you think that it didn't?


That's actually an easy one, Dr. Van Der Sypt pretty well proved this in his paper which was the original focus of this thread.
 
downwardsfromzero
#498 Posted : 4/11/2019 6:06:34 PM

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RhythmSpring wrote:
GordoTEK wrote:
RhythmSpring wrote:
Auxin wrote:
Harmaline needs a reducing agent to convert to THH, and water is not one.

Do you mean to say that water + heat ( + time) does NOT convert harmaline to THH?


Compare the harmaline molecule to the THH molecule. Notice those 2 extra hydrogen atoms? Those have to come from some where, so where do you envision them coming from with just water and harmaline?


Free-floating hydrogen ions in the water?

The hydrogen ions in (acidic) water are positively charged. They would need to be balanced out with the addition of a corresponding number of electrons. Where would these electrons come from? Reducing agents provide electrons...




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
RhythmSpring
#499 Posted : 4/12/2019 9:12:43 AM

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GordoTEK wrote:
RhythmSpring wrote:
GordoTEK wrote:
Think that through, if water could serve as the reducing agent here, then shouldn't the harmaline have reduced when you were extracting it in boiling water from syrian rue seeds in the first place?

To echo what endlessness is saying, what makes you think that it didn't?


That's actually an easy one, Dr. Van Der Sypt pretty well proved this in his paper which was the original focus of this thread.

Proved what, exactly? Sorry, I read the study as best I could and I could not decipher whether THH was successfully extracted from a water-boil alone. He started boiling with water but then went through a whole bunch of other steps.
From the unspoken
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RhythmSpring
#500 Posted : 4/12/2019 9:20:17 AM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
RhythmSpring wrote:
GordoTEK wrote:
RhythmSpring wrote:
Auxin wrote:
Harmaline needs a reducing agent to convert to THH, and water is not one.

Do you mean to say that water + heat ( + time) does NOT convert harmaline to THH?


Compare the harmaline molecule to the THH molecule. Notice those 2 extra hydrogen atoms? Those have to come from some where, so where do you envision them coming from with just water and harmaline?


Free-floating hydrogen ions in the water?

The hydrogen ions in (acidic) water are positively charged. They would need to be balanced out with the addition of a corresponding number of electrons. Where would these electrons come from? Reducing agents provide electrons...

Well, my tap water, even filtered tap water I believe would have both positive and negative ions in it, various minerals, etc., right? Who's to say that using distilled water plus zinc or other minerals of your choosing is more effective or efficient than using tap or well water, which likely has various elements from both the ground and the pipes?

I mean heck, a quick google search shows that common "galvanized" pipes are coated with zinc. Not to mention all the trace minerals in ground water.

(sorry for the double-post. I meant to combine.)
From the unspoken
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