from what i saw in experiment the 90s, and coming from a clinical psychology perspective,
i've seen evidence for Salvia divinorum in potential 'medium term' treatment of depression,
after a few administrations..

in fact, it's what i generally concluded the Salvia was good for (regardless of effects) ..
i hope more is done with this area of research..
a 'peak experience' inducing substance like DMT (which is more 'kundalinic', if you like) is not i think so suited to ongoing depression, as others here have suggested

good luck with which method you choose null24..

When I was younger I suffered from mild depression, however after my first DMT breakthrough it vanished completely, I've also become a far more positive and happy person in general, and have a renewed love for this life, though the experiance itself was fairly traumatic, it was high dose, and I was not trying to cure anything, I was just curious, and incidentally cured my depression, I also doubt that you could treat depression with high dose DMT, but in my case it worked.

---

Sorry if this goes off topic, but there was a tryptamine compound marketed as an anti-depressant...alpha-ethyl-tryptamine.

( AET was also the center of a drug analogue court case in Denver involving a dealer selling the compound as MDMA)

(This compound also has potential as an aide to withdrawal for opioid addicts)






-eg

This video seems relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UUiyfu4wSo

"DMT - a catalyst for moving beyond depression". It was a presentation at the UK Psychedelic Society.

Apologies for not being able to describe it more, I don't have much time at the moment, but hopefully it will prove interesting. My partner (who is actively considering using DMT herself to treat her depression) and I really enjoyed it.

I think that one of the problems with salvia for depression is that its duration is rather short. I imagine that a longer therapy session would be more helpful.

Perhaps one of the alkoxymethyl ethers of Salvinorin B would be a more effective treatment, but they've barely been investigated.

With chewed Salvia you get about an hour or more for a ceremony. Much better then when smoked.

Many people report good results for easing depression using doses that arent even psychedelic though - just chewing smaller amounts. It has great anti-depressant properties that last long after the plant duration.

yeah, in 'sub-entheogenic' doses, Salvia divinorum can be chewed fairly regularly as a depression medication, without un-desirable side-effects..

but also, regardless of duration, slightly larger doses (chewed, as traditional, or smoked), following the experience seem to have a longer lasting 're-set' effect on people with long term depression's systems, and seem to regulate mood..

i've seen mood regulation also in animals, namely a billy goat who got off his lead and ate a salvia plant...went from headbutting nuisance to calm and responsive to behaviour requests

This^^^^

We treat quite a few depressed patients at our acupuncture clinic each year (I've dealt with it off & on for decades myself) & one point that I usually always make to them is that, considering the time & culture that we're living in presently, if you're not at least somewhat depressed at least some of the time then there is definitely something wrong with you for sure. That usually will elicit a smile that says, "oh, you get it? Wow."

We live in a psychotic, neurotic culture...Depression, in my not-so-humble opinion, is one of a handful of what I consider to be "normal" responses to said culture.

My love goes out to you null...

May you find peace in your heart.

Thanks y'all for your continued input, definitely not just for my sake but for the benefit of the many others with these questions.

Pihuachenyi- I'll have to check that out when I get to a free wifi spot! Thanks!

Reflecting what Jamie, travsha, and nen have said, it's more the long term or medium benefit effects from salvia that are what I'm after.

I'm staying away from DMT and lightning breakthroughs ATM. I think I've settled on psilocybin to test here... I know I talked about DMT earlier but... I'm scared. Lol. Maybe once I've dipped my feet in the psilo...

This seems like an interesting idea for a study. Give aggressive/depressed animals salvia and see if and how they change their behavior.

Since the original post, I've been working pretty hard to pull myself out of the initial depressive phase that prompted the OP. I don't know if it's due to sheer force of will or on the other hand simply the vagaries of fluctuating neurochemistry, but I did start to feel better.

Which is a good thing. Shortly after posting this a very dear friend passed awaysuddenly, tragically and unexpectedly. It was a brutal shock, if I was still in a deep depression, don't think I would've been able to handle it nor the responsibilities that came along with my friends death.

That said, through this tragedy I hit upon what appears to be a flat out cure: feline influence. Heidi (RIP) fostered a cat, which I adopted. I was a little worried about it, because Heidi had not had her very long and had told me that the cat was not very personable. That she like to hide from other people and it wasn't very much into being petted. But even after the trauma of having two strangers coming to her home, stuff are in a duffel bag and then drive her blind 50 miles north, to be deposited into a little RV, she doesn't seem to mind very much.

She stayed in the duffel bag for about six hours during which I just left her alone, but when she came out she was mewling for attention. She's been by my side since- sleeping with me in the bed, playing with the laser pointer and her plethora of toys, is eating, pissing, sleeping and crapping normally and I find myself with wearing a smile more so than I have in a while.

The day after I brought her home there was a small article in the New York Times about a new study on just that, the findings being that when depressed people interact with animals that stress hormones are reduced and production of endorphins increases and I must concur from my own findings; my cat is getting me high.

Of course in the back of my mind I think she's an incarnation of some great healer, and she is helping to remove some of the negative energy in this place, clearing the setting for a psychedelic experiment. For the benefit of the cat (and me), I did some serious spring cleaning in the yard be scrubbing it floor-to-ceiling, putting fresh flowers in it, setting up a couple altars and just making it a nice pleasant place to be. Now that that's done, I asked Satan Claws for some mushrooms and found them in my mailbox this morning. It's all goes well today now that I have a good set and setting as well as a sitter I believe the experiment will commence this weekend. Report coming soon...

»»EDIT»» my iPhone hates me, I don't know why my pictures come out sideways. She's talented but not that talented

Have you considered trying brews or pharma rather than smoked spice null?

I have found that with what I use, which is somewhere between brew & pharma, rue extract + brewed MHRB, that you can start with low doses of DMT & feel things out without blasting yourself into a place you are not sure about. With the right dose things are gentle & yet very powerful. One has the option to dive deeper or to remain grounded.

I cannot say in your position if it will do what it does for me, but I have found using it as a therapy session really helps to alleviate some negative energy & feelings of depression. I have learned to work through some issues within my own mind & come to terms with them, accepting them & actively using the things i have learned to improve in areas of life that i see need work.

Also, nice little friend you have there During trips I find animals have the power to be immensely comforting beings.
It's as if they sense something occurring & protective instinct kicks in. They love snuggling up & showing affection.
I call my animals my spirit guardians. Always there to protect my vessel while I am away in hyperspace. I have yet to come back & not find a cat or dog lying next to me with a loving yet concerned look in their eyes.

Y'know, no, I haven't really considered that.

I have some ACRB and rue laying around, maybe I'll do a little experimenting. I've never done Aya or pharma, and will have to research dosing etc first, but yes, that's a good idea. And an option that has been staring me in the face.

I am so delighted to hear that you have a new feline friend null!!!

And very happy to hear that you cleaned up & cleared up your space. That ALWAYS helps depression & sets the tone for more psychedelic work.

What could be better? I'll tell you what could be better, cleaning/clearing a personal space AND an animal friend!!!

Truthfully, without all my animal & plant friends I would go stark-raving mad-depression mode & not come out of it...Seriously.

A lot of people look at my wife & I with a really wierd looks when we say we have 5 dogs & they're all rescues...Not to mention all the chickens (which, believe it or not, can make for mighty fine, personable pets; plus the eggs!!! Yum!!!!) & all my bonsai trees (40+ & growing) plus hundreds of plant friends & allies in pots & in the ground that give us joy & real meaning to live & love each & every day!

You are lucky null! And it makes me feel very good to tell you so!!!

Peace my friend, peace....

Sometimes makes it better, sometimes makes it worse.

null24

My thoughts and my heart are with you... Life can get really tough and difficult at times but I get a sense that you have a remarkable amount of strength and courage my dear friend. The techniques and methods that have really carried me through some of the most trying times of my life have been practicing mindfulness and meditation, continuously cultivating and growing my connection with nature, getting involved with community orientated meditation gatherings and flow arts as well as trying my best to help others specifically children or animals in what ever small way I am able to.

Entheogens are incredibly powerful tools without a doubt, though I really feel its of the greatest importance to establish a foundation of connection, community, creativity and heart felt experiences. People who suffer from posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) have benefited from practicing mindfulness and mindfulness based stress reduction (MBSR) techniques.

Have you done some work with MDMA therapy? As for me personally my experiences with MDMA have been extremely valuable but I must urge you to source pure MDMA and if at all possible please test the MDMA using a Marquis reagent testing kit for safety reasons.

Opening the heart is certainly where its at, keep fighting the good fight.


Much Peace and Respect

Thank you for the kind words, though I don't think that strength or courage are things I have in abundance ; rather I feel it's just perseverance and a strong will to survive. I agree that community is perhaps the MOST valuable tool in the box. No man is an island. Peninsula, maybe , but...



I have not. I've played with it quite a but in my days of youthful hedonism but performing self-work with it is something I've yet to do. I do know of some practitioners working with it locally, and accessing it would be fairly simple, along with an experienced guide/sitter. When my finances are a little bit better, that's a step I would like to take.



Agreed.
However, at this point in time I'm looking for something gentle and therapeutic. I just finished performing an extraction several weeks ago and have several grams of DMT laying around, I've never sat here and looked at it this long without actually using it, LOL it just isn't calling me though. I have been working with a Psilocybin micro dosing regimen (.5gram dry cubensis, 3-4X/week with 24-hr "spacers" between.) and it has been particularly effective. Mood stabilization and even elevation, as well as heightened productivity and creativity have been reliably observed.

On the days I do it, I just feel "dialed in"; that is, effective in areas I am sometimes lacking in. I feel little to no anxiety in social interaction, can connect words to thoughts and feelings easily, and have a sort of 'dispassionate' position, observing emotions like ripples in a pond-rising and falling away. So I have found it to be a very effective tool which I would recommend to anybody.

From what I have found effective in ameliorating the symptoms of clinical depression I could recommend the following – in no particular order, and not carved into stone:

• Community-other than this one, which I've said many many times before has been an invaluable aid, maintaining a presence and organizational role in a local group of practical psychedelic helps gives me a sense of purpose beyond the benefits of being part of the community.

• an animal/pet (something outside of myself). If I'm having a shite day or moment I can't go home and start cussing at the walls, there is someone else there who is very sensitive to that kind of thing and I don't want to make her fear me but rather know that I'm her stability. She keeps me in check.

• keeping notes that I can refer to, a simple gratitude list.

• staying busy – keeping out of my head through work. Creative efforts are another way of staying busy, but when depression hits that's the last thing that I do. So, I clean the trucks on the lot if there's nothing else to do. Rust never sleeps.

• and finally, the psychedelic aspect. Like I mentioned, the microdoseing has been particularly effective. I also regularly work with cannabis and occasionally will take an entheogenic dose of 'shrooms. I was just gifted with 40 pounds San Pedro cactus, and while I've never worked with mescaline, I'm excited that it came to me and for what is going to be a special, edifying and hopefully rewarding project.

From what I understand of mescaline, it's therapeutic potential can be similar to that of MDMA. I don't know if I'm just lumping it together in my head because they're both phens, or if that is an actual piece of information I gleaned from somewhere.

As always, much much love to all of you. I'm so happy and grateful to be a part of this community, and I hope that other people can be helped similarly to the way I have through these posts and the community as a whole.

Thank you

Psychedelics can be amazing for this kind of thing!!!

I just wanted top add a little update top the thread.I've been pretty silent about my struggles,so thought it may be helpful to share.

The last year has been tough, the losses have come hard and heavy. Death has taken my very best friend,and both of my parents.

Grief is terrible. They say that it has stages,and that they are universal to all who undergo it,and that may be true. However,the way they manifest has no script. It depends on so many variables,and is as complex as the relationship that has been lost.

I've never dealt with such pain without using numbing drugs like heroin. All I can say is that doing so is helping me to get in better touch with the "real me" than ever before.

There's a lot that goes into the loss of one's parents. The relationships with my three older siblings which is estranged to say the least,complicates things too.

All this is too much to handle alone,and being fortunate to live in a state with socialized medicine,I've been able to access private talk therapy. My therapist works with EMDR, which I saw tremendously help my dear friend that no other treatment had worked with, and a new techniques called brain spotting. Both of these therapies aim to do the same thing that psychedelic therapy does:reframe events and traumas.

It's a little early to tell,but the therapy has given me some breakthroughs that I've been unable to achieve alone. So far,it has been a freeing experience. I look forward to continuing..

Combined with psychedelic journeys,which I have not done in a very long time due too poor set and setting circumstances,therapy-with a good worker who understands and accepts my world view,has been a good experience.

Along with that,I've found that adding a whole lot of structure has helped. I discovered how much being of service helps me feel worthy, and volunteering as a reading tutor with a organization that works with developmentally disabled and neuro-diverse adults has led me to discuss an aptitude for such work as well as a deep love and affection for the population and individuals we serve. I'm also working with a local church to open during the day to let people who are without homes to have a creative space to do art, combined with a writing program sponsored by a local non profit. This takes me out of me, which can be a shitty place 24/7 without break.

Self care also involves groups classes and meetings daily. DBT is like a miracle with its effective tools, going through anger management for the third time,it's starting to catch on, a couple recovery meetings and a closed men's process group round out my week.

I'm happy that the recovery community has finally started to move away from twelve steps and complete abstinence philosophies. Harm reduction is the new paradigm,and is far more acceptable and effective for me.

TLDR: death and grief suck, therapy combined with psychedelic work is a good idea, and my life does better with structure, and when I'm being if service.

I'll edit typos later...

Hey Null,

It is a truly awesome and inspiring thing to see you becoming so involved in therapy. It is the most important tool and the one that compliments all other healing tools to improve their effectiveness. A strong foundation in psychotherapy brings great healing on its own, and that foundation allows all the other healing experiences and tools to be as effective as possible in combating depression.

To heal from the trauma and depression you have experienced without pharmaceuticals is a remarkably brave and intense undertaking. It inspires me to read your posts and hear about all the different ways you have worked towards your healing. Regardless of wherever you currently are on your healing journey, it is obvious that you are an individual who possesses the strength, willingness, and hope that it takes to heal without pharmaceuticals. I've personally known many patients with depression and have studied the stories of countless others. You most certainly stand out as being a person who, without a doubt, has the capacity to get through this. The discovery you have made about the help you get by adding structure to your life is extremely important. This discovery is a defining quality among the people who have exceptional success in healing life-long depression.

It seems like you have keen a sense of understanding when psychedelics are a good tool to be actively using and when they are not needed. I hear you say that you haven't used psychedelics for a very long time due to poor set and setting. Consider that maybe you have avoided creating the appropriate set and setting for psychedelics in your life because on some level, you have known that these drugs are not meant to be part of your healing journey during this time. I think that those of us who use psychedelics for healing have a much keener sense of when we should use and when we should avoid psychedelics than we realize.

Psychedelics are extremely useful for one particular type of life challenge- this is big decision-making. Psychedelics come in very handy when we feel "stuck." Decisions that require great amounts of work and courage are so hard to make, especially when we are not completely sure that a decision is the right one at all. It sounds like you are doing a very good job at healing from your depression with the tools you have chosen to use right now. If you feel stuck, if you find your healing journey obstructed by the challenges of making a big decision, choosing a new path, or making difficult changes, I think psychedelics could be very useful to you. But until then, I hope you have faith and pride for the ways you have fought your depression without drugs. Therapy, groups, service, and other engagements are the things that will exercise your willingness, strengthen your commitment, and hone your skills that you will use moving forward on your healing journey.

It might work but in my experience that would have to be a semi regular thing than.

I noticed that the only period I wasn't depressed was when I was dropping acid every free day from work. I'd wake up at 8:00am, drop a tab or two, do my usual morning routines while comming up, and spend the rest of the day tripping. I would be completely down by 8:00pm with a smile on my face, this way all my trips were possitive because I knew I've got my life under control.

The trips became something I was looking forward too, and having something to look forward too is a good way to make a basis for some long term happiness... or atleast the illusion of it... As soon as I stoped, the depressive feelings came back after some time. It seems if you really are depressed and not just occasionally sad that your happiness hugelly depends on your brain chemistry.

To this day I haven't found a better way to self-medicate then tripping. You could probably get away with tripping twice a month and keep your mood in check. This also isn't a magic pill that you take once and are healed forever, but I find semi-regular tripping a way better way to deal with depression then smoking weed all the time, drinking, doing hard drugs or poppin' some shady pills that a doctor perscribed you in hope for you to become a life-long costumer and not to heal you.

I'd also like to chime in on the thema ayahuasca and depression. Some would argue that ayahuasca is more effective for healing depression and for some it might be. Aya has a shorter duration so most people can do it pretty much anytime. All you have to do is tell anyone who might need you "I'm going to be away for a few hours". So you can be upset, drink some aya and feel better afterways. It gives you a superior afterglow because you are not so tired after it, more than anything you are happy you don't feel like you're sick anymore, and there is this harmala thing going on which contributes to the happy and possibly euphoric feeling of the DMT afterglow.