does anyone know of any lab-tested explanation for how the chemistry behind this is supposed to work? I've seen this discussed on a couple serious chemistry boards lately, and the consensus is that the evidence for LSH being produced from acetaldehyde (and perhaps ethanol) isn't very good. The main problem is that the amide nitrogen on ergine would need to be a site of action, but since it is not the most nucleophilic site on the molecule it seems unlikely to react to the required degree. N-1, C-2 and c-3 would be more prone to reacting with acetaldehyde, none of which would yield LSH (some would yield salts, not sure about others.) However, this idea flies in the face of at least half the trip reports which seem to be positive and "more visual" than LSA.

I'd love to see this done in a lab with access to a GC/MS setup, but that's probably not going to happen anytime soon. Does anyone have any non-anecdotal information on this reaction? I'm not trying to say that it doesn't work, I have no idea; I'm just curious what the underlying chemistry is if it does work. The proposed explanations I've seen thus far have some issues, as stated above.

My guess is that there wasn't enough peppermint used. In most cases when this fails, adding more peppermint will give you success.

There’s a certain threshold that needs to be met for the reaction to work. It either works or fails. There’s usually no middle ground.

I think everyone would love to see that.

I do not to give too much weight to what the “chemists” posting on most of these kinds of forums have to say about this subject. Most of them are not good LSD chemists. Most are not even amateur LSD chemists. An LSD chemist is not likely to be posting in any of these forums for fear of being tracked by the DEA.

Chemistry is not as simple as people like to think it is. Sometimes things happen in a way that cannot easily be predicted.

For example, the whole “calcium bufotenate” debate. No one seems to agree on it. Some “chemists” on these kinds of forums say it’s possible, some “chemists” say it’s not, etc.

Even expert chemists will argue about reactions. Until there’s proof, it’s just a bunch of theory, so I wouldn’t pay too much mind to people talking about things they haven’t proven in actual laboratory tests.

For the test to be done right it needs volunteers who can tell the different between LSA and “LSH”. Because the formation of “LSH” does not always work, the end results must be tested by man to see if the “LSH” even formed before you even go analyzing it, or you may analyze a failed attempt and prove nothing.

Keep in mind that peppermint contains hundreds of compounds, not just acetaldehyde. A reaction of some sort is actually happening, but no one really knows if acetaldehyde is solely responsible for the reaction.

What’s interesting is that SWIM found the reaction either completely fails or is a complete success. There seems to usually be no middle ground. It’s like either all the LSA is converted to “LSH” or none is. There seems to be a threshold you need to get over, and once it's crossed the conversion is complete, and if the threshold is not crossed, nothing happens. It's not like 50% of the LSA converts, it's like either 100% or 0% converts. Anyway, that's how it seems to SWIM based on self bioessays. He’s almost never had it partially work. This indicates some pretty tricky chemistry is going on that might not be easily explained.

You're right. The kind of analysis I'm really interested in probably just isn't possible in today's world. On the other hand, if someone had a set of even 10-20 volunteers it would be enough to do a reasonable blinded study.


I wonder if this is mostly or completely responsible for the ~50% of experience reports out there that report no effects.

I don't think that the reaction succeeds only with 0 or 100 percent and i also think that everything points at LSH being the psychedelic compound.
And i think both for this reason: some people report psychedelic, LSD-like effects with seeds that haven't been in contact with mint or anything simmillar. The seeds also contain LSH by themselves and as well the percentage of LSH (that varies per sort and strain of seeds) as the psychedelic quality of the seeds get reduced in time.

This to me looks like you need a certain percentage of the alkaloïd content to be LSH, to get psychedelic effects. This could be because if the percentage is to low, you would need to take such an amount of seeds to get the right amount of LSH, that you would have to poison yourself severely with the total of all the alkaloids. It could also be that if the percentage of LSH is to low, the effects of the other alkaloids overpower the effects of LSH, so it won't be noticeable anymore.

It is probably a combination of those two factors instead of extremely complex chemical reactions with complex chemical equilibriums, that's responsible for the dificult psychedelic status of the seeds and seeds, processed with mint.

I wonder how much acetaldehyde peppermint contains and if that is what mostly causes this reaction I can't find anywhere the amount,but that it does contain it. I read peppermint is a stimulant, a tonic, and helps digestive system disorders. It contains a whole lot of other stuff and other medicinal uses you can read about here

You are misinterpreting my quote. SWIM uses PURE LSA, not seeds containing a mix of LSA and LSH. So in his case it’s either 0% or 100% with no middle ground. Using the seeds, that’s a different story, because they naturally contain a mix of LSA and LSH.



That’s one idea of course. However SWIM tends toward it being a complex chemical reaction because he’s using pure LSA, not a mix of alkaloids.

That’s a good point worth bringing up. It’s very possible that it’s not even acetaldehyde that’s doing this. No one knows. Until a good scientific analysis is done, we may never know.

SWIM tried this, but was too impatient to wait a whole night, and is unsure how much of a difference it made. However, when SWIM took 1.5 HWBR seeds a few weeks ago raw, the experience was creepy and uncomfortable. 2 of the same seeds soaked in peppermint oil consumed at 2pm was just short of fantastic. No real visuals at that dose, but the lysergic euphoria was there, and it was 8 hours of reflective happiness. SWIM also decided at 9[m to rearrange his entire living room, and fell asleep at 11 with it half-reassembled, which seems to SWIM like a very post-lysergic activity. Some day when SWIM has some real thinking to do, he may try 3 or 4 (he started low as he'd been told these seeds are unusually potent, and SWIM is very sensitive to these energies).

So, no real OEVs to speak of, but vaporizing some pot did bring out some warm geometric CEVs. More importantly, the glowing electric body love brought a feeling of peace and a desire to do little besides simply Be, which for SWIM was always a hallmark of real LSD. I wish SWIM had more experience with LSA vs LSH to know if the peppermint did anything. Almost no nausea, despite SWIM completely stuffing his face from the 6h mark on.

This combo will be tried again in the future. Whatever the actual chemistry, one subjective experience was a lot more pleasant than the same seeds prepared differently.

edit: lacking datura, SWIM used benadryl 25mg, which is at least vaguely in the same class of substances. No stomach problems noted.

Because some strains of seeds contain large amounts of LSH (when they're not too old) by themselves, some people report LSD-like experiences from just the seeds.
I have never encountered such seeds, or seed extracts.

So if you notice LSD-like effects from a small amount of seeds, it's hard to tell, whether the reaction occured.

Does anybody know if the natives used additives when they used these seeds? Maybe they knew ways to make the seeds more psychedelic as well.

I read that sweet wine also contains very high amounts of Acetaldehyde since I rarely drink what kind of wine is that just a dessert wine? Is peppermint the most reliable,or how many times has 69ron SWIY,or any SWIM failed with rum,or sherry wine?

yesterday swim tried HBWR water extract ( 7 seeds ) with 3 datura seeds (sublingually) and it was simply terrible.
Ginger didn't help with horrible vasoconstriction, swim felt pain in legs , it was really hard to breath. Thanks God it ended after 10h.

Does redosing with HBWR work if not enough is used,or is it a waste? Nadir did SWIY use peppermint?

Nope, just ordinary cold water extraction

Chocolate works much better than ginger to counteract vasoconstriction. Next time try a very strong cup of chocolate milk with 2-3 times as much chocolate as you would normally add. Hershey’s or Nesquik chocolate syrup works really well.

Just to clear a few things up for some people.

-Peppermint and spearmint are basically the same. They have all the same compounds and oils basically just in different ratios. I'm sure they can be used interchangeably

-Peppermint is very easy to find. Go find some running water and you'll be sure to find some. It will have opposing leaves and a square stem. Some peppermint has fat green stems some thin black stems. They also flower with a cone on top with small light blue/purple flowers running horizontally of the cone.

-Peppermint already is a pretty good source of vitamin c... so the guy that was wondering about the vitamin c thing there you go.

-In my personal opinion, there is no better bronchodilator than yerba mate. Contains both theophylline and theobromine and small amounts of caffeine. When i drink it normally i notice i can take far deeper breaths. Also yerba isn't speedy like other bronchodilators since the theobrombine which is dimethylxanthine i think as opposed to caffeine which is metabolized into mainly paraxanthine which sucks because it has less complete adenosine receptor coverage. Also weak MAOI action occurs

In conclusion, don't stress over mint identity since they're extremely similar, drink some yerba and play some halo 3. If anyone has any other questions...

Yerba mate should be good, as well as kola nut and chocolate. All three are high in theobromine. Theophylline is a great bronchodilator, better than theobromine. Theobromine is a more effective vasodilator though. Caffeine is both, but not as strong. It’s more of a stimulant than the others. Theophylline and theobromine together are great for use with LSH, because LSH is both a bronchoconstrictor and a vasoconstrictor.

Thanks! next time swim tries cacao + kolanut

I'd do the rum soak too!

SWIM did a red rum extraction using 6 seeds to a shot. His wife and him both took a shot, and the experience was vastly improved over his previous attempts using plain water, and peppermint tea. His wife commented that she felt as though there was very good energy running through her, she plopped on the floor and proceeded to stretch and smile. SWIM felt a very warm and fuzzy body high, stimulated in terms of energy. SWIM felt mild vaso and bronchial constriction, so went to the store to buy a yohimbe energy drink, and these feelings went away (SWIM's wife did not experience any of these symptoms). Overall it was a very good night, not on par with lsd, but sort of in its own category for SWIM now, very earthy and mellow. Thanks to everyone for this thread, SWIM'd go with the rum soak if you're trying for your first time.