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SWIMfriend
#61 Posted : 6/10/2009 8:36:15 PM

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So, to recap, I'll be trying to give consideration to two ideas (separately and jointly):

1) Finding more soluble salts for DMT
2) Considering a variation of nebulizing involving filling a bag--so that the rate of nebulizing isn't an issue.
 

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WSaged
#62 Posted : 6/10/2009 8:40:00 PM

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Quote:
WS and 69ron...sounds like somewhat unhappy news. Certainly, 6 mls is way over the top in terms of inhalation within a minute or two via a medical nebulizer. I'm also not too enthusiastic about inhaling DMSO on a regular basis (although there have been health benefits cited for DMSO use in/on the body generally).


Yeah, that's a bit disappointing.

If I wanted to test solubility of it in alcohol, what kind of alcohol would be safe to use?
I've never worked with alcohol as a solvent...


I'm sure one of these solvents will work eventually.
Does anyone know for sure if it would even be safe to inhale DMT-Fumarate?

WS
All posts are fictional short stories depicting the adventures of WSaged!! None of these events have actually happened and any resemblance to any real persons or incidents is totally coincidence!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
69ron
#63 Posted : 6/10/2009 8:45:49 PM

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SWIMfriend wrote:
as mentioned by 69ron in an earlier post--the nebulizer method might be very good for mescaline: A post on another forum claims that only 1ml of water can dissolve 300mg of mescaline hydrochloride.

I wonder if the DMT ion ITSELF just doesn't do well in water....or if another salt besides fumarate might be more soluble?

If the mescaline hydrocholride figure is correct (and it wouldn't surprise me--it's still LOWER in solubility than NaCl in water), then the straight nebulizer answer WOULD DEFINITELY WORK.

Is the mescaline ion that radically different from the DMT ion? If not, then the solution is finding a salt that would be much more soluble than DMT-fumarate.

Anyone know about DMT-acetate solubility?


Freebase DMT and freebase mescaline are two radically different compounds. Freebase DMT is almost insoluble in water. Freebase mescaline is very soluble in water. That’s why A/B extractions done on mescaline give very poor results.

I’d look into using DMT hydrochloride or DMT acetate, not DMT fumarate. DMT fumarate is the least water soluble salt form of DMT. DMT acetate and DMT hydrochloride are both so water soluble that they suck water right out of the air.

My guess is that DMT acetate is 100 times more water soluble than DMT fumarate. It pulls water right from the air and become wet after just a few minutes. It loves water. You can't have dry DMT acetate under normal conditions. It's pretty much always dissolved in water. If you dry it in an oven and take it out, it becomes wet again. The same is true for bufotenine acetate. It's a wet sticky mess.
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SWIMfriend
#64 Posted : 6/10/2009 8:53:36 PM

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69ron wrote:
...My guess is that DMT acetate is 100 times more water soluble than DMT fumarate...


BINGO! If that's true then that's the solution. And it brings my idea back around full circle--the medical nebulizer's rate of delivery would be adequate.

Can you make DMT-acetate from freebase by just adding some acetic acid (somewhat diluted, I suppose)?

Addressing WS:

1) There's no reason to believe that inhaling DMT fumurate or acetate would be harmful. Both fumurate and acetate ion are produced by cells themselves, and are very common in biologic systems.

2) If you're interested in testing solubility of DMT-freebase...instead of alcohol, the thing to try will be VINEGAR (possibly diluted). 69ron can give a much better suggestion on exactly how this should be done...

OH HAPPY DAYS!! Looks like this will work afterall!
 
WSaged
#65 Posted : 6/10/2009 8:57:53 PM

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69ron wrote:
Freebase DMT and freebase mescaline are two radically different compounds. Freebase DMT is almost insoluble in water. Freebase mescaline is very soluble in water. That’s why A/B extractions done on mescaline give very poor results.

I’d look into using DMT hydrochloride or DMT acetate, not DMT fumarate. DMT fumarate is the least water soluble salt form of DMT. DMT acetate and DMT hydrochloride are both so water soluble that they suck water right out of the air.

My guess is that DMT acetate is 100 times more water soluble than DMT fumarate.


How would you recommend one best convert freebase DMT, or DMT-Fumarate into one, or both of those?

One other quick, somewhat related question, I've bought THH-HCL from a certain "flowing" vendor. However, the Harmaline & Harmine I've bought from them is in a freebase form.
When using these for pharmahuasca, would it be best to convert the bases to salt, or the salt to bases?
If so how would you recommend doing that best?
Or, does it even matter?
The DMT I use is DMT-Fumarate BTW, if that makes any diff at all.

I've noticed since using these particular Harmalas, it takes a bigger dose for me to get effects that I got once, extracting Caapi on my own.
I've been wondering if the THH being HCL is the difference in the dose that I've been having to make up for...?


Thanks!

WS
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SWIMfriend
#66 Posted : 6/10/2009 9:07:53 PM

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WS: regarding freebases, salts, hydrochlorides, etc. for consumption. I used to be rather a fanatical vitamin supplement user. All three of those variations are used in supplements--I'm sure depending strictly on making for sale the MOST SOLUBLE VERSION!

There is no harm (especially in the quantities we use) in taking them orally. I don't THINK there's going to be any harm even taking them as nebulized solutions into the lungs. Quantity is the main issue--as long as they're not actually POISONS (and they're not), then the issue is going to be pH and or redox potentials. With small quantities (a few drops!) even those issues aren't going to be important, IMO (we'll see. I'm willing to be the first guinea pig Pleased )
 
69ron
#67 Posted : 6/10/2009 10:07:36 PM

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warrensaged wrote:
I've noticed since using these particular Harmalas, it takes a bigger dose for me to get effects that I got once, extracting Caapi on my own.
I've been wondering if the THH being HCL is the difference in the dose that I've been having to make up for...?


That's hard to answer exactly without knowing what was in your particular caapi. Not all caapi is the same. Some contains quite a bit of harmaline, but most only contains traces. Harmaline is about twice as strong of an MAOI as THH or harmine.

THH HCl is less potent by weight than freebase THH. So that could account for some of it. I think more than likely, it's the different harmaline content that's doing it. How you take it also makes a difference. If taken in capsules it always requires more harmala alkaloids. They should be dissolved in water before being taken. If freebase, add a little lemon juice to it. Salts predissolved in water are always better than freebase when taken orally.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
WSaged
#68 Posted : 6/10/2009 10:30:37 PM

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Right on, I guess I really haven't had enough experience with combining my own Harmalas yet.

I have been dissolving them in a small amount of warm (not hot) Guayusa tea & chasing it with Orange juice for a while now.
I had the same experience with gel-caps too, at least with MAOI/DMT, thay just don't seem to dissolve fast enough.
And when using pure Harmalas & DMT-Fumarate (or HCL apparently...) it doesn't really taste that bad anyway.

Do you happen to know the difference in weight between THH freebase & HCL?
Lets say a "recipe" calls for 75mg of freebase THH, how would that convert to HCL weight?

Thanks a lot for your knowledge here man, numbers are not my area of talent, that's for sure!! Embarrased

WS
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SWIMfriend
#69 Posted : 6/10/2009 10:40:32 PM

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There's always a lot of digestive variability when it comes to capsules...
 
amor_fati
#70 Posted : 6/10/2009 11:57:17 PM

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SWIM never had much luck with capsules.
 
Jorkest
#71 Posted : 6/11/2009 3:48:16 PM

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capsules didnt work for SWIM...he mixes everything in warm water and downs it...no need to wait and split the dose...so it could easily work with the nebulizer
it's a sound
 
Garulfo
#72 Posted : 6/18/2009 11:06:14 PM

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Any news from a nebulizer user ?

SWIM made a small test with Melaleuca Viridiflora essential oil. It appears that 30 mg of freebase DMT is dissolved in 2 drops of essential oil.
 
WSaged
#73 Posted : 6/18/2009 11:16:56 PM

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Garulfo wrote:
Any news from a nebulizer user ?

SWIM made a small test with Melaleuca Viridiflora essential oil. It appears that 30 mg of freebase DMT is dissolved in 2 drops of essential oil.

WOW!

That sounds promising!

WS
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Infundibulum
#74 Posted : 6/19/2009 12:38:18 AM

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Awesome indeed! SWIM will try the same with essential oil of Melaleuca alternifolia (tea tree oil) because he's got plenty of it lying around.

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
bufoman
#75 Posted : 6/19/2009 1:21:00 AM

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DMT fum is very soluble in water. If one wants to use a salt there should be no problem in using DMT fum as opposed to other salts.
SWIM thinks the freebase should be used as the salts are not absorbed well. They may work but if one could nebulize the Free base it would likely be absorbed quicker and and at higher concentration than the salt.
 
SWIMfriend
#76 Posted : 6/19/2009 1:57:28 AM

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Garulfo wrote:
Any news from a nebulizer user ?

SWIM made a small test with Melaleuca Viridiflora essential oil. It appears that 30 mg of freebase DMT is dissolved in 2 drops of essential oil.


WOW!! I like the sound of that. Using the nebulizer I originally linked to, a couple things have to be kept in mind:

1) Generally about TWO DROPS of your dose is left remaining, and never gets nebulized. Of course, on can always leave it to dry, I suppose-thus essentially leaving it in there as a permanent "bottom" that really never gets used (of course, the actual MOLECULES would change with each use). That means, though, that you have to play a numbers game: TOO MUCH liquid gives a low waste percentage, but can't be nebulized in a very short time; TOO LITTLE liquid will give a high percentage of waste--for example, using 4 drops will leave HALF you dose in the medicine container. It CAN be retrieved--but it has to be kept in mind.

2) Oil may not nebulize as fast as a water solution. 0.9% salt solution (in water) is what is used to test for speed of nebulizing--different substances will nebulize at different rates.
 
SWIMfriend
#77 Posted : 6/19/2009 1:59:49 AM

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bufoman wrote:
DMT fum is very soluble in water. If one wants to use a salt there should be no problem in using DMT fum as opposed to other salts.
SWIM thinks the freebase should be used as the salts are not absorbed well. They may work but if one could nebulize the Free base it would likely be absorbed quicker and and at higher concentration than the salt.


According to a test that warrensaged did--the results of which were give 69ron's imprimatur--DMT-fumarate is not going to soluble ENOUGH, unfortunately (in water). DMT-acetate will probably work FAR better. Ideally, we'd like to be able to dissolve a dose in 8-10 drops of water...

....but see next post.
 
SWIMfriend
#78 Posted : 6/19/2009 2:13:01 AM

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I spent some time thinking about the nebulizer situation today, as a matter of fact. Lately I've had two ideas:

1) There's nothing to stop anyone from CHAINING TWO NEBULIZERS TOGETHER! I'm really committed to the idea of using the nebulizer. The ULTIMATE solution might be to make my own--capable of a very high rate of nebulizing. But a short term solution would simply be to link together the outputs of TWO nebulizers (if necessary)--you'd get twice as much fog produced per time.

2) Today I realized that probably the EASIEST solution would simply be to have a sort of modified "bong chamber." I've thought of trying a 2 liter soda bottle, for example. You start your nebulizer up and let it fill the 2 liter bottle, and THEN begin taking hits. If it takes say, 20 seconds for the nebulizer to fill the bottle, then that's twenty seconds you "save" in the rush to get all the dosing you want as quickly as possible. By the time you've taken the first hit and held it for a couple of seconds, the soda bottle resevoir is somewhat full AGAIN. I think it could be worked out so that this method alone would solve all problems.


SO, Update:

1) It looks like DMT-Acetate alone is going to solve most of the nebulizer issues. Warrensaged found it took 120 drops of water to dissolve 50mg of DMT-fumarate--not good enough. 69ron declares that DMT-acetate is probably "100 times" more soluble than fumarate, which means 50mg of acetate would dissolve in about 2 drops. That's not an unreasonable figure: one can dissolve 50mg of NaCl in about 3 drops of water. Indeed, one can dissolve about 175 mg of sucrose in ONE DROP of water!

2) One can easily double the rate of nebulizing by connecting the output of two nebulizers--if necessary, one can take that as far as one wants.

3) An easy solution might be a temporary storage area for nebulized mist--which makes at least the initial rate of nebulizing a non-issue.

4) Garulfo reports that 30 mg of freebase DMT can be dissolved in 2 drops of Melaleuca Viridiflora essential oil.
 
SWIMfriend
#79 Posted : 6/19/2009 2:20:25 AM

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According to wikipedia, "An infusion from leaves of Melaleuca viridiflora is drunk, inhaled or used for bathing to treat coughs, colds, congestion, headache, fever and influenza."

So there should be no reason it can't be inhaled!
 
SWIMfriend
#80 Posted : 6/19/2009 3:30:19 AM

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Here's a nice looking company (listed in the supplier thread), which has an amazing collection of exotic oils, including the one mentioned by Garulfo.
 
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