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Cybs Hybrid ATB 'Salt' Tek...Designed for newbies. Options
 
lobo
#41 Posted : 2/3/2013 2:18:25 AM

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Wow..Surprised . I would like to see that
 

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mnirm
#42 Posted : 2/4/2013 12:28:18 AM
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ChemisTryptaMan wrote:
cyb, in my last topic i talk about increasing ionic strength further through the use of multivalent cations like magnesium and calcium, and anions like phosphate and sulfate. In your tek you include an acid wash. I would recommend that you switch the acetic acid, which produces acetate ions in the final mixture, which carry a charge of -1. If you were to substitute that with phosphoric acid, the phosphoric acid would be converted to phosphate ions with a charge of -3. This would give them a cubed effect on the final ionic strength contribution of the acid used. I would even recommend finding some calcium biphosphate or sodium phosphate to add as a salt to the mix. The effect on ionic strength could be enormous. Just a thought. I'll try it if nobody else has by the time i am ready to start a new extraction.


edit: I think this may be the final push needed to get that magical 3% that used to be only a dream, now i believe it to be fully achievable.

I will be able to try this soon.
 
cyb
#43 Posted : 2/4/2013 7:26:46 AM

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mnirm wrote:
I will be able to try this soon.


Nice one mnirm Thumbs up

Please record your method, timings etc. and post your yield.
It would be very useful
Thanks
cyb
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mnirm
#44 Posted : 2/4/2013 2:08:20 PM
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Sure. I can perform the tek with the vinegar and salt first the use Phosphoric Acid and sodium phosphate with the same batch of MHRB. I am a novice extractor though. I have performed an extraction a while ago using q21q21 limo acetic tek but It didn't turn out to well. I don't know the quality of the bark I used though. This time will be different.

I would need a little help about how much phosphoric acid to use as it is stronger than acetic and where to get sodium phosphate. Is Trisodium Phosphate the same? Just go to the hardware store? Would I use the same amount as the Sodium chloride?
 
cyb
#45 Posted : 2/4/2013 2:13:30 PM

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mnirm wrote:
I would need a little help about how much phosphoric acid to use as it is stronger than acetic and where to get sodium phosphate. Is Trisodium Phosphate the same? Just go to the hardware store? Would I use the same amount as the Sodium chloride?


Not sure on the amounts as yet...It would amazing if you could experiment on a small 50g bark amount...maybe PM ChemisTryptaMan with your intentions and he maybe able to help further...Thumbs up
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ChemisTryptaMan
#46 Posted : 2/5/2013 10:37:49 PM

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mnirm, you are right, phosphoric acid is far stronger, but this just means your gonna have to add more lye to the mix to reach the right pH afterwards. I would still use salt in your extraction too. I have been advocating a long cook in the acid wash stage to break apart the plant proteins, so you would want to reach a lower pH anyways, as the reaction is catalyzed by the acid so you would need a stronger acid either way. If you give me the amounts of everything used before you basify I can do the calculations for you as to how much extra lye to add. This will depend on how much acid, what strength acid, and the volume of the solution. with those values I could give you an exact amount. The actual pH would be even more helpful if you have a meter, but I can do the calculations without it.
 
Orion
#47 Posted : 2/6/2013 4:07:39 PM

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Great tek, is the acid step just in there in case you decide to go A/B and do filtering out of solid material and defat the solution ? I know you said it can be omitted but maybe mention this in the wiki page.

I imagine if I were a noob and then went on to learn about a full a/b tek after trying this one, I would be rather confused as to why I had added acid before.

Having said that though, nicely written easy to follow pictorial guide Smile
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cyb
#48 Posted : 2/6/2013 4:17:41 PM

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Orion wrote:
Great tek, is the acid step just in there in case you decide to go A/B and do filtering out of solid material and defat the solution ? I know you said it can be omitted but maybe mention this in the wiki page.

I imagine if I were a noob and then went on to learn about a full a/b tek after trying this one, I would be rather confused as to why I had added acid before. )


Good call Orion (missed that)...done...

Acid step is included to help lyse the material further...

Also it's in the Hybrid section for this reason...Thumbs up
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blueskiesbri
#49 Posted : 2/15/2013 4:35:58 AM
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Hi. Well, someone I know messed something up. This was their first attempt at an extraction, and they were really excited to see this newer tek show up. They wanted to see if anyone has any suggestions for what they could have done wrong. I have been told that everything looked exactly like the pictorial showed, all the way through the process, with the exception of the separation phase. This person noticed that the top layer was not as clear and "bright" as in the pictures. It was darker. The end result was gooey, not powdery. I was told it looks like caramel. Fans blowing on the glass trays for over an hour, yet it was still gooey.

Any constructive criticism for the newbie?

Thanks in advance. They feel like a chump for not being able to do such a great tek, and everyone else is posting great successes.
 
cyb
#50 Posted : 2/15/2013 7:50:28 AM

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blueskiesbri
I assume your using 50g mhrb...are you sure it was mhrb?
The NPS layer can be dark yellow sometimes...if you have used too much heat or lye or left it in the jar for a long time...it can be this way.

Carmel colored goo doesn't sound right..
Does it smell active?
I would scrape it all up and re-crystalize it again using minimal warm solvent and re-freeze.

possible causes:
i.pulled some base layer with the solvent causing staining.
ii.the freezer wasn't cold enough to precipitate into xtals
iii. if you re-x'd...the sediment can be dark and waxy...this is the stuff you leave behind.

If you want to go over it further...start a new thread in the 'General Extractions Help' section and we can help you further.
That way this thread won't become cluttered.
Thumbs up

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Ancotar
#51 Posted : 2/16/2013 2:52:40 PM

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cyb wrote:
blueskiesbri
I assume your using 50g mhrb...are you sure it was mhrb?
The NPS layer can be dark yellow sometimes...if you have used too much heat or lye or left it in the jar for a long time...it can be this way.

Carmel colored goo doesn't sound right..
Does it smell active?
I would scrape it all up and re-crystalize it again using minimal warm solvent and re-freeze.

possible causes:
i.pulled some base layer with the solvent causing staining.
ii.the freezer wasn't cold enough to precipitate into xtals
iii. if you re-x'd...the sediment can be dark and waxy...this is the stuff you leave behind.

If you want to go over it further...start a new thread in the 'General Extractions Help' section and we can help you further.
That way this thread won't become cluttered.
Thumbs up



Just wanted to mention that this has happened to me before. When dried, I was given "maple sugar" looking crystals that were so incredibly powerful I could not believe it! To this date, I still have not been able to replicate the process to get that particular spice. You have got yourself a rare treasure there indeed!
"We speak of Time and Mind, which do not easily yield to catagories. We separate past and future and find that Time is an amalgam of both. We separate good and evil and find that Mind is an amalgam of both. To understand, we must grasp the whole." -Isaac Asimov

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger." -Buddha

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when my fear is gone I will turn and face fear's path, and only I will remain." -Paul Atreides, while being tested with the Gom Jabbar by the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
 
blueskiesbri
#52 Posted : 2/17/2013 2:42:20 AM
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I don't want to clutter up this thread, but wanted to let you all know that the issue was something I didn't mention--
Rather than use a freezer, for some stupid reason this dude I know decided he wanted to use an ice cooler and put dry ice in it. Evidently that was just not cold enough, long enough, because he just told me he did a redo of this tek exactly and used an actual freezer this time, and voila! nice pretty crystals...on the yellow side. It all scraped off the glass tray really nicely. So, thank you very much, Cyb, not only for this tek, which was really simple, but also for fielding some questions for a newbie. I really do love the people of this forum. You are all so amazingly intelligent and giving of knowledge!

Smells like the rubber soles of new shoes.

Thanks again!
 
cyb
#53 Posted : 3/2/2013 8:24:12 PM

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chasebandit wrote:
"Hey gang, just wanted to chime in and say that cybs' tek has given me a 1.3g yield of fluffy fluffy white and I'm loving it. I used 50grams mhrb, basified overnight, naphtha pulls in the morn and then into the freezer for 18hours, I have found that if you want the xtals to grow long and pretty like mine you have to let it precipt for longer.. and that friends is all I got to say, cyb - you're the man!"

also if it helps I have found that my heat baths work best at 55 degrees cooling to 30 before I reheat, and for the last naphtha pull I shake the hell out of the base liquid and naphtha and put in in 60 degrees cooling to 30 for an hour or so and that separates it pretty solid, it also allows the naphtha to bring along some plant oils giving it a slight yellow appearance that will stick to the bottom of the pan but doesn't affect the scraping of crystals, I have found by doing it this way I don't end up with yellow xtals, I end up with bright white but a think layer of the oils below... so maybe that gives some insight...


Thumbs up Wink
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mnirm
#54 Posted : 3/5/2013 12:52:37 AM
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Hey cyb I am working on a 175 gram bark extraction and I am running out of room in my container. I am on step 5 right now and I wanted to know if I could omit the extra water added to the solution after the lye water is added.

In my last extraction I used half trisodium phosphate and half sodium chloride and I pulled some very nice white spice. The first pull got about 1.2% yield on its own.
 
cyb
#55 Posted : 3/5/2013 6:43:46 AM

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@mnirm
Hey nice yieldage.

You can use as much water as you need for your container.
As long as the aqueous layer (bark/lye/salt/water) is a 'watery' consistency and not thick and sludgy, you will be fine. It needs to be watery enough for the naphtha to penetrate the mix and slip off and separate.

The teks' amounts were to ensure that the aqueous layer reached such a point in the neck of the bottle that the naphtha could be drawn off easily.
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mnirm
#56 Posted : 3/5/2013 2:42:17 PM
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Gotcha Thanks!
 
Jees
#57 Posted : 3/31/2013 6:34:40 PM

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This 200 + 140 = 340 ml water, why not saturating these with kitchen salt please?
Thank you.
 
cyb
#58 Posted : 3/31/2013 6:41:29 PM

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Jees wrote:
This 200 + 140 = 340 ml water, why not saturating these with kitchen salt please?
Thank you.


Not sure what your asking there Jees but the 200ml is enough the dissolve the lye in and the 140ml is enough to top up the water level till it reaches high enough up the bottle so that the solvent can be reached with ease.
The Salt solution is put in prior to this stage...or at the same time if needed.
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Jees
#59 Posted : 3/31/2013 7:02:26 PM

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I was just wondering, perhaps naive, in order to push up the ionic strength, to have more kitchen salt in the bottle?
 
cyb
#60 Posted : 3/31/2013 7:18:28 PM

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Jees wrote:
why stop at 30 grams?
I have no idea if it would help anything to go with more salt but was just wondering where the limit is (to be effectively helping and not causing adverse effects in some way).

Well you can divert from the tek if you wish, of course.
I have found that 'over-basing' can cause micro particles of the base mix to become suspended in the NPS and give a purple/dark solvent layer...not what you want...!

More salt won't hurt, but, an excess in saline (3-4x) was found to be 'too much' and became detrimental.

Jees wrote:
BTW, just started my very first extraction ever on 50 gr, with 0.5 ml phosphoric acid, fingers crossed Smile
I will check on pH to see how many lye is needed to get to pH 12.
It is 12 we have to reach right? Or is it more?

Phosphoric is a good way to go...it's strong stuff so be careful to dilute adequately...
It will help raise the ionics.
Also an acid soak of upto 24 hrs can be very useful for a little extra yield.

PH 11-12 on the base is enough...but the aqueous layer/bark mix will turn dark/black when the right base amount is reached...This is a good visual indicator.
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