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The feared and misunderstood purge. Options
 
hixidom
#21 Posted : 8/3/2012 12:24:38 AM
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I've never done it, so I don't yet fully understand how purging fits into the nature of the whole experience. I'm sure you all are right.

3rdI, I don't know what you mean by "fun". Psychedelics are many things to different people. I'll take extreme spiritual stress over extreme gastrointestinal stress any day, but that doesn't mean I use psychedelics to have fun. I don't want to start an argument. Suffice it to say that I'll let you all know when I've tried ayahuasca for the first time and thus understand what it means to be cleansed.
Every day I am thankful that I was introduced to psychedelic drugs.
 

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olympus mon
#22 Posted : 8/3/2012 3:10:59 AM

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hixidom wrote:
I've never done it, so I don't yet fully understand how purging fits into the nature of the whole experience. I'm sure you all are right.

I'll let you all know when I've tried ayahuasca for the first time and thus understand what it means to be cleansed.

Im not sure what more to say other then the OP to explain how many view the purge. Is it that hard to see the health and emotional burden release of purging?

Also no that isn't true that if you purge you need to keep drinking. In fact the purge usually starts the full blown experience that will blow your mind.

Id say if you dont understand or dont want to purge then pharma would be a better option. Far less mess and almost identical experience.

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hixidom
#23 Posted : 8/3/2012 3:57:09 AM
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Quote:
Ayahuasca is serious, sacred, soul medicine and should be respected as such. There is nothing entertaining about the experience, and the rigorous self-examination that results from ingestion is the polar opposite of escapism. On the other hand, many people have experienced a renewed spirituality, connection to life, freedom from depression, creative insights, inspiration, and guidance that can only be described as "from above."


I'm all about this type of experience/journey, and if purging is part of it then I'll embrace it like all the rest. It's more so my girlfriend that I'm concerned about. She is interested but is concerned about getting sick. I think I see now that discomfort and purging are necessary to weed out those who are serious about the spiritual journey from those who are just experimenting with drugs. And of course I know it's also a rite of passage; a trial that must be endured in order to purify the body and refine the soul.
Every day I am thankful that I was introduced to psychedelic drugs.
 
Infundibulum
#24 Posted : 8/3/2012 2:39:11 PM

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olympus mon wrote:
Is it that hard to see the health and emotional burden release of purging?

Yes and yes.

So how the purging expels "toxins" (or whatever "toxins" are) from the body during sessions? I think especially that thing with toxin removal has to be backed by some evidence because the way it is promoted thus far sounds like BS.

I also do not see the relief of emotional burden; it is similar to wearing a couple of smaller numbers size shoes just to remove them at the end of the day and feel relieved. That is, when I purge I get rid of all the nauseating plant material that I, myself and strictly not the neighbour, just put in my body.

All this advocation of purging sounds more than "it's crap but you'll get used to it and befriend it" rather than "it's really beneficial when you get to learn what it means"



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universecannon
#25 Posted : 8/3/2012 5:34:08 PM



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Infundibulum wrote:
olympus mon wrote:
Is it that hard to see the health and emotional burden release of purging?

Yes and yes.

So how the purging expels "toxins" (or whatever "toxins" are) from the body during sessions? I think especially that thing with toxin removal has to be backed by some evidence because the way it is promoted thus far sounds like BS.

I also do not see the relief of emotional burden; it is similar to wearing a couple of smaller numbers size shoes just to remove them at the end of the day and feel relieved. That is, when I purge I get rid of all the nauseating plant material that I, myself and strictly not the neighbour, just put in my body.

All this advocation of purging sounds more than "it's crap but you'll get used to it and befriend it" rather than "it's really beneficial when you get to learn what it means"


Have you had many purges during deep aya sessions?
The Nexian


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jamie
#26 Posted : 8/3/2012 5:35:41 PM

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harmalas kill parasites..this is well understood. In the amazon parasites are a big problem for the natives peoples. When they drink ayahuasca and it kills any parasites in the gut, and they then vomit all of this out I would think that it would be a good thing.
 
olympus mon
#27 Posted : 8/3/2012 5:36:00 PM

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Infundibulum wrote:
olympus mon wrote:
Is it that hard to see the health and emotional burden release of purging?

Yes and yes.

So how the purging expels "toxins" (or whatever "toxins" are) from the body during sessions? I think especially that thing with toxin removal has to be backed by some evidence because the way it is promoted thus far sounds like BS.

I also do not see the relief of emotional burden; it is similar to wearing a couple of smaller numbers size shoes just to remove them at the end of the day and feel relieved. That is, when I purge I get rid of all the nauseating plant material that I, myself and strictly not the neighbour, just put in my body.

All this advocation of purging sounds more than "it's crap but you'll get used to it and befriend it" rather than "it's really beneficial when you get to learn what it means"



Have you not ever been given news so horrible or stressful that you feel it in the pit of your stomach? Have you ever had your heart broken and feel it in your chest?

I sure as hell have. When aya brings up serious shit in my past and I work through it the emotions just sit in my stomach and I feel a huge release when they come out. I actually feel lighter. Guess you don't but it doesn't make the benefits to the purge crap. Just crap to you.
if you want science to refer to I dont see how its any different than placebo which IS measurable as well as real enough to have a placebo in most trials and testing. So not a thing is introduced into the body other than sugar pill but the effects are measurable and real as it gets.

I dont know your background with ayahuasca but id be quite surprised if you have worked in depth with this plant and have no idea what anyone is talking about.
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universecannon
#28 Posted : 8/3/2012 5:53:08 PM



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olympus mon wrote:


Id say if you dont understand or dont want to purge then pharma would be a better option. Far less mess and almost identical experience.



For me I still purge with pharma just about as much as I do with aya, but it's not nearly as smooth for some reason. I can't speak for everyone though
The Nexian


<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
universecannon
#29 Posted : 8/3/2012 5:59:35 PM



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jamie wrote:
harmalas kill parasites..this is well understood. In the amazon parasites are a big problem for the natives peoples. When they drink ayahuasca and it kills any parasites in the gut, and they then vomit all of this out I would think that it would be a good thing.


Yeah.. Anti-viral, bacterial, fungal, tumor, etc etc... Interestingly there was also that one scientist at a conference on psychedelics who said in some personal research he found that the blood of those who took it had an increase in PH, and supposedly it could be connected with a release of internal toxins
The Nexian


<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
Infundibulum
#30 Posted : 8/3/2012 6:04:49 PM

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@olympus

Hmmm...I am not sure If I really get your points, as they read out of place.

You referred to physical and emotional cleansing and I inquired further, I do not think you quite answered to me. Your points about the measurability of placebo are also out of place (really, what does it have to do with this discussionVery happy), confusing, and semantically incorrect.

I may need to emphasize that I do see the benefit of purging, and that is why should I really keep inside me something that is uncomfortable (be it puke or diarrhea)? Just puke and get over it! But your posts indicate a physical and mental cleansing that comes from the purging that I do not really understand.

So yo you really suggest that, even without any evidence or indication, that purging removes toxins of a chemical and emotional nature?


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Infundibulum
#31 Posted : 8/3/2012 6:08:34 PM

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universecannon wrote:
jamie wrote:
harmalas kill parasites..this is well understood. In the amazon parasites are a big problem for the natives peoples. When they drink ayahuasca and it kills any parasites in the gut, and they then vomit all of this out I would think that it would be a good thing.


Yeah.. Anti-viral, bacterial, fungal, tumor, etc etc... Interestingly there was also that one scientist at a conference on psychedelics who said in some personal research he found that the blood of those who took it had an increase in PH, and supposedly it could be connected with a release of internal toxins


But you also understand that studies demonstrating such anti- effects are all in vitro studies? I have been through the whole harmalas literature lately and I find such claims to be hugely blown out of proportion, so I think you have to be more careful with the claims you make.



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olympus mon
#32 Posted : 8/3/2012 6:25:47 PM

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Infundibulum wrote:
@olympus

Hmmm...I am not sure If I really get your points, as they read out of place.

You referred to physical and emotional cleansing and I inquired further, I do not think you quite answered to me. Your points about the measurability of placebo are also out of place (really, what does it have to do with this discussionVery happy), confusing, and semantically incorrect.

I may need to emphasize that I do see the benefit of purging, and that is why should I really keep inside me something that is uncomfortable (be it puke or diarrhea)? Just puke and get over it! But your posts indicate a physical and mental cleansing that comes from the purging that I do not really understand.

So yo you really suggest that, even without any evidence or indication, that purging removes toxins of a chemical and emotional nature?



Well were going to just have to disagree on many things here.

For starters you could read what Jaime wrote, past that I haven't read much convincing findings about chemical removal of toxins but emotional, hell yes and Im not sure how exactly you would measure that other than observation.

Self evidence is the thorn in the side to many including myself regarding the existence of God but Im gonna have to play that card on this one. I know how I feel after a purge in a heavy state, I know how i feel the next day, I know how it feels when I resist and dont purge. Whether a bunch of lab coats can come in and measure me up and down finding evidence matter's not to me. Maybe thats where we differ. You seem to need science to back up personal experience which I understand but I dont feel the same way on all matters.
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Troubles Breaking Through? Click here.
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Infundibulum
#33 Posted : 8/3/2012 6:38:49 PM

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!!!
OK, if the cleansing and benefits you advocate is in the "gut feeling" then there is not space for rational-evidence-based discourse here!

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jamie
#34 Posted : 8/3/2012 6:41:30 PM

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"then there is not space for rational-evidence-based discourse here!"

As is so often the case when it comes to the subjective aspects of heavy psychedelic experiences Smile
 
olympus mon
#35 Posted : 8/3/2012 6:59:50 PM

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Infund, if your this interested in the science then check out the Huasca Study done by the Brazilian Govt. if you haven't already. Its the only published, peer reviewed study that looks at the physical and mental health risks and benefits from drinking ayahuasca.

There is definitely science showing the benefits in the neurology of participants and there may be some information about toxins. I haven't read it in a while.

Honestly I don't care if you think we are all a bunch of woo woo nut balls. Lack of Science study's doesn't trump my experiences. To be honest there haven't been many study's done in this area that I know of so because it hasn't been shown yet doesn't mean its not there.

BTw, You have been given examples by scientists of the benefits of harmalas and purging parasites but you just say "its blown out of proportion". I dont know what else to tell you.

Also not sure if your aware but multiple published and reviewed papers here in the states conclude that majijuana has no health benefits and even zero effect on appetite. HOw I have no idea!Surprised Just tell that to one stoner and watch the reaction. My point is that the subjectional experience and science don't always go hand in hand.
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Zaka
#36 Posted : 8/3/2012 7:49:18 PM
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Irie,
I embrace the purge.Sick Big grin
I find I can direct the medicine through the course of my body.
Total speculation; I wonder if the flood dmt might make the parasites think the host is dying & therefore try to find the fastest way out???
Respect,
Z
 
jamie
#37 Posted : 8/3/2012 7:51:36 PM

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Infundibulum wrote:
universecannon wrote:
jamie wrote:
harmalas kill parasites..this is well understood. In the amazon parasites are a big problem for the natives peoples. When they drink ayahuasca and it kills any parasites in the gut, and they then vomit all of this out I would think that it would be a good thing.


Yeah.. Anti-viral, bacterial, fungal, tumor, etc etc... Interestingly there was also that one scientist at a conference on psychedelics who said in some personal research he found that the blood of those who took it had an increase in PH, and supposedly it could be connected with a release of internal toxins


But you also understand that studies demonstrating such anti- effects are all in vitro studies? I have been through the whole harmalas literature lately and I find such claims to be hugely blown out of proportion, so I think you have to be more careful with the claims you make.




Infund... There have been studies done on live cattle with peganum harmala that have produced these findings and support the idea that harmalas are infact effective anti-parasitical medicines..This claim is not only based on in vitro studies. They found 78% success rates when treating cattle with peganum harmala who were infected with theileria annulata.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....mc/articles/PMC2532620/

 
jamie
#38 Posted : 8/3/2012 7:54:27 PM

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"Interestingly there was also that one scientist at a conference on psychedelics who said in some personal research he found that the blood of those who took it had an increase in PH, and supposedly it could be connected with a release of internal toxins"

It was at a MAPS conferance universe and the guy was a doctor yes..and he claimed to have experimented on himself taking ayahuasca and taking the PH of his blood before and after the purge..and that after heavy purging his blood PH was like around 10!..which is hard to believe but interesting..
 
universecannon
#39 Posted : 8/3/2012 8:21:28 PM



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universecannon wrote:
Infundibulum wrote:
olympus mon wrote:
Is it that hard to see the health and emotional burden release of purging?

Yes and yes.

So how the purging expels "toxins" (or whatever "toxins" are) from the body during sessions? I think especially that thing with toxin removal has to be backed by some evidence because the way it is promoted thus far sounds like BS.

I also do not see the relief of emotional burden; it is similar to wearing a couple of smaller numbers size shoes just to remove them at the end of the day and feel relieved. That is, when I purge I get rid of all the nauseating plant material that I, myself and strictly not the neighbour, just put in my body.

All this advocation of purging sounds more than "it's crap but you'll get used to it and befriend it" rather than "it's really beneficial when you get to learn what it means"


Have you had many purges during deep aya sessions?


I'm curious to hear what you're experiences have been like, in light of you're views on this sort of thing
The Nexian


<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
Infundibulum
#40 Posted : 8/6/2012 12:53:00 PM

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jamie wrote:
Infund... There have been studies done on live cattle with peganum harmala that have produced these findings and support the idea that harmalas are infact effective anti-parasitical medicines..This claim is not only based on in vitro studies. They found 78% success rates when treating cattle with peganum harmala who were infected with theileria annulata.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....mc/articles/PMC2532620/



Very interesting, thanks! But to what extend can you extrapolate these finding to humans? Surely theileria annulata is not the main concern (at least for urban dwellers) when it comes to theurapeutic use of aya.

There definitely is a host of pollutants, let's say for the sake of argument 1. meavy metals; 2. pesticides/fungisides/etc; 3. plasticizers like bis-A that can find their way into our bodies and may generally compromise our physiology. What makes people think that purging specifically can help you get rid of said toxins? I can think of a million of other ways that, aya for instance can help neutralise such contaminants. So why purging?

universecannon wrote:
I'm curious to hear what you're experiences have been like, in light of you're views on this sort of thing

well......been there, done that! Very happy Always a relief to purge but I could do without. Too bad pharma does not work very well for me so I have to resort to the old school brewing.


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