Just for the record: that's not exactly the idea I want to communicate.

What I mean is that once the content of an experience is turned into CONCEPTS, the CONCEPTS are not the SAME THING as the EXPERIENCE. And so discussing, comparing, sharing, defining, contemplating CONCEPTS is...meaningless--compared to the actual experience.

Furthermore, to lose the distinction between the experience (and it's integration) and the concepts harvested from the experience is to lose....everything valuable about the experience.

^ you can say that about anything in life though. One mans idea of another mans experience is just one mans concept as well..so how useful is it?

Right that makes sense to me: Stimuli that comes into our brains we interperite into symbols and concepts, and often we thing in terms of these symbols (words) and concepts too.

But i think its jumping to a conclusion to say that the actual phenomena (or stimuli) or the "objective reality" is different from the symbols we percieve. I say that because, no one knows for sure and has seen the objective truth beyond perception (including yourself swimfriend, you are no more qualified to speak of what is true than any of us, since we are all human and imperfect)

Im not saying the symbols we percieve are 100% the truth, but i do think there is truth behind them, and through the depiction of these "visions" this is the only way we can comprehend what is going on because thats how our brains work, we are linguistic creatures and that is a great gift.

I think there is real phenomena behind the visions speaking to us through the visions. In fact with the experiences i have had the one thing that is always extremely clear is that a genuine and real "other" conciousness is being tapped into. I simply cannot accept that there is no contact with autonomous conciousness anywhere along the line. In other words i think it is silly and we are giving ourselves way too much credit for vivid imaginations when we say "the psychedelic experience is all in the head"

I think rather than merely representing these things, the symbols "accurately" represent them, and have truth behind them because of the perhaps real phenomena on the other side of the symbol.

So what i mean is that you can say

"What I mean is that once the content of an experience is turned into CONCEPTS, the CONCEPTS are not the SAME THING as the EXPERIENCE. And so discussing, comparing, sharing, defining, contemplating CONCEPTS is...meaningless--compared to the actual experience."

But you dont know that for sure, because you are a human like the rest of us and theres no way you can confirm this as a absolute truth, because you have an ego too, and you are also limited to these symbols and concepts. and therefore your statemtn has as much truth and meaning as any human statement. and you are no more or less correct than olympus mon, exept that i prefer to subscribe to that particular view because it is much more fulfilling to my spirit.

Which brings me back to my main point. There is no "truth". one "truth" does not negate the other. truth is just another word, we are here merely to experience phenomenon and i figure we might as well enjoy it while were here

Furthermore i would like to speculate that through the use of ayahuasca an entheogens, we can see past our ordinary human limitations and see things as they are. (trancend these human concepts) i think that is why it is called entheogen, or god revealing, or mystical experience, because it transcends the ordinary....

So you better believe is moma aya breaks down how life works and creation to me, you bet your ass im going to believe her!!!

You're right, I DO say it about anything and everything in life. But in the "ordinary" world, it's rather less important: most perceptions/experiences can be re-examined, investigated, tested. Most experiences in the ordinary world don't invite EARTH-SHAKING interpretations about our existence. It's not QUITE as vital to be ultra-aware of the possibility for confusion/misinterpretation in the ordinary world--and even there, confusion and misinterpretation are quite common--frustratingly common.

As for now, I think we're unfairly hijacking OM's thread. I'm going to stop responding in this vein.

Thank you,
But to be honest I feel this is the community's thread more than mine and i feel that the conversation being had is an important one for for the community. So please if all party's care to continue I feel there is some great information being presented here on all sides and wish it to continue.
I appreciate the courtesy, but your all making this thread what it is as much as the op.
OM'

Oly, Brother,

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to finally get to reading this post. I'm truly, genuinely happy for the things you are learning / experiencing, and the transformation you are undergoing in your travels.

Your write-up is truly inspiring and intriguing. I know you well enough to know that you have most likely gone deeper than just about anyone else posting here on this thread. In addition, words written on "paper" can only express so much when it comes to experiences of the deeper consciousness. It was courageous for you to even attempt to describe an experience of this magnitude in such detail, in black and white. That being said brandishing courage was clearly not your intent, and this place (The Nexus) is not about courage anyway. It's about many things outside of the ego, including exploring concepts and theories that are far beyond what consensus reality dictates to us. I applaud you for keeping that spirit alive.

There are many derailing comments that I would like to respond to on this thread, but I wont water it down with more. I am content with the message conveyed as the original purpose of this thread, which was to share the amazing experience you had.

Love to you brother and I hope to see you there soon!

i too just now read this (haven't been around much). what can i say other than I LOVE YOU.

my twin spirit out doing the deep work. i'm proud, honored, tickled and inspired to call you brother....

send you the deepest love and gratitude!!

"The alcohol lessons"

Im pissing myself!!

Someone once said "There is no such thing as a miracle, just ignorance of the process" I see no reason why these entities can't be real, and presented to us via neurochemistry. Somewhere during our evolution, there will be a crossover of science and the mystical.

Thank you OM for sharing your amazing journey with us, you are doing some fine work my brother.

Peace

Macre

Just read your OP,
Felt like I had to chime in and say I've had a similar experience with MHRB. I was shown a version of the 'Beginning' that mirrors your description, but I could never find any words to explain what I had witnessed.
Thank you for putting it so eloquently OM.

olympus mon,

great read! thank you for that.

i appreciated it a lot!