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The FASA Method: A Summary - DMT Fumarate and Beyond Options
 
Infundibulum
#101 Posted : 10/26/2009 11:28:17 PM

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tryfex wrote:
24444444444444444442424242424

What about using picric acid instead a fumaric acid?
Anyone experienced that?

shakti

You must be joking. Picric acid is pretty nasty stuff and its use carries the risk of potential hazards!
What is the rationale for using picric acid? Is it the only acid you can find?!?!?!

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 

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shoe
#102 Posted : 10/28/2009 10:43:42 AM

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geeg30 wrote:
Just a couple of quick questions:-

Is it just Fumaric acid that can be used - what about mallic, tartaric etc? (fumaric acid is quite expensive)

Also has anyone tried using solvents other than xylene and toluene for eg DCM?



SWIM doesn't report fumaric acid as being expensive. He picked up 100g food grade for £2 from a well known online eVendor Pleased

So, To you other UK guys; try the eVendor I mentioned...
shoe

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Otiliya
#103 Posted : 12/12/2009 9:42:47 PM

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Would someone please verify DMT N-Oxide solubility in acetone?


69ron
Quote:
“Jungle spice” could be a mix of DMT N-Oxide and some red beta carboline. I’ve heard of that being a possibility.

I haven’t seen any references with a good solubility profile for DMT N-Oxide. The references I’ve seen only mention that it is soluble in water and insoluble in petroleum ether (VM&P Naphtha). So maybe it’s soluble in xylene or toluene as well. SWIM doesn’t have xylene at the moment and can’t get toluene to test with. SWIM doesn’t like the very strong smell of xylene so he almost never uses it anymore, so SWIM can’t comment on the solubility in xylene or toluene as of yet.

According to SWIM’s limited tests it seems to be soluble in DCM (dichloromethane), acetone, and isopropanol. This needs to be verified by making DMT N-Oxide from pure white DMT crystals (from Chacruna) via hydrogen peroxide and then testing its solubility.


If DMT N-Oxide is soluble in acetone, then there is no need for the Zn reduction pita.
 
Infundibulum
#104 Posted : 12/12/2009 11:08:42 PM

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dmt-n-oxide is soluble in acetone. but SWIM does not understand how this is correlates with the Zn reduction.


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
Otiliya
#105 Posted : 12/18/2009 3:05:11 AM

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It just seems too good to be true! DMT N-Oxide is turned into a DMT N-Oxide Fumarate salt? That means there is no need for acidifying MHRB and reducing the DMT N-Oxide with Zn. SWIM is concerned about DMT N-Oxide due to recent finding that there is almost another 75% more actives to be pulled(STB + Naptha) from SWIMs bark thanks to Zn powder reduction. It must be old. Many thanks to 69ron's contributions.

Is it DMT N-Oxide Fumarate or converted to DMT Fumarate? I suspect, pharma wise it makes no difference as long as it is a salt...
 
panoramix
#106 Posted : 1/3/2010 2:27:41 PM

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i was wondering if i can use citric acid for this becouse fumaret acid is hard to get here
im going to try a nice experement.

i whant to do the BLAB tek without the d-limo (becouse cant get it in the NL for a nice price)
and use naptha instead than the rest of the FASA on it.
and than make it freebase agean.
to get very nice xtals

so the big question is can i use a other acid than fumaret acid.

thenkx
Panoramix, the honorable druid. With his golden knife he cuts his herbs, with which he prepares his famous magic potion.

And he knows many other secret recipe,,,




 
elphologist1
#107 Posted : 1/4/2010 1:45:14 AM
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As far as I know, the reason why fumaric acid is used is because it creates one of the few salts of DMT that is not hygroscopic (absorbing water from the air). You can make DMT citrate or other salts, but getting them to dry is likely to be a problem. I made the hydrochloride using a tiny bit of DMT freebase residue I had left in the bottom of a container. I dried it with a desicant, and yet within a minute after I took it out of the container with the desicant it became wet and stuck to the container I put it in. Within an hour it looked like drops of water. And this was in a very low humidity environment. I can imagine doing this when it was humid. Other salts like the citrate or the hydrochloide are not going to be harmful or anything, but it will be hard to make use of the product.

elphologist
 
soulfood
#108 Posted : 1/4/2010 2:03:19 AM

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If you are going to convert to a freebase afterwards then citric acid will be fine, but as the reasons state in the above post, it's just a little bit annoying to work with.
 
Infundibulum
#109 Posted : 1/4/2010 11:03:11 AM

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elphologist1 wrote:
As far as I know, the reason why fumaric acid is used is because it creates one of the few salts of DMT that is not hygroscopic (absorbing water from the air).

Wrong.

Fumaric acid is used because dmt-fumarate is completely insoluble in acetone. dmt-citrate on the other hand is somewhat soluble in acetone. This means that the FASA precipitates can be washed with acetone to remove any xylene/toluene residues as well as any lipid impurities to give fairly pure alkaloids. A CASA approach would have you washing away citrate salts.

Of course the hygroscopicity of the other dmt salts is totally irrelevant when someone plans to convert them to freebase


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
panoramix
#110 Posted : 1/4/2010 1:50:16 PM

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hay thenks for the info all i did try some citric it works it make xtals but they lock a bit as it what set above the wil not dry whel tomoro i wil have my sodium carbonate en lock i can freebase it i also ordert some fumaric acid so no citric anymore. thenkx for all the info i lurn alot on the Nexus

greeder pano
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And he knows many other secret recipe,,,




 
panoramix
#111 Posted : 1/4/2010 7:22:16 PM

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whel a litle update i have made some very nice xtals this way i dride the xtals in the jar with a fan and have nice xtals to i tink its a succes now i have to whate for my sodium carbonate to base it back to freebase.

greeder
Panoramix, the honorable druid. With his golden knife he cuts his herbs, with which he prepares his famous magic potion.

And he knows many other secret recipe,,,




 
TheAppleCore
#112 Posted : 4/17/2010 10:03:23 AM

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So, I salted some DMT freebase in solution with anhydrous acetone by adding FASA. This produced some large, gorgeous, clear, crystals which formed on the bottom the the jam jar in which I performed the procedure. I poured the leftover acetone from the jar, and left the jar open for some time to allow the crystals to fully dry.

A strange thing happened, however -- my pretty crystals, as soon as the acetone evaporated, started to melt. Now they're reduced to a clear goo. Totally impossible to work with (can't transfer it to & from my scale). Any ideas?

EDIT: They're slowly crystallizing. It's been around 12 hours, and about 10% has crystallized. My only explanation for this is that I didn't quite fully dehydrate the acetone that I was working with, and as the acetone evaporated more quickly than the water, the concentration of H2O in the solution became greater and greater until reaching a point at which the fumarate began to dissolve.
 
Vularin
#113 Posted : 4/21/2010 9:47:39 PM

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TheAppleCore wrote:
So, I salted some DMT freebase in solution with anhydrous acetone by adding FASA. This produced some large, gorgeous, clear, crystals which formed on the bottom the the jam jar in which I performed the procedure. I poured the leftover acetone from the jar, and left the jar open for some time to allow the crystals to fully dry.

A strange thing happened, however -- my pretty crystals, as soon as the acetone evaporated, started to melt. Now they're reduced to a clear goo. Totally impossible to work with (can't transfer it to & from my scale). Any ideas?

EDIT: They're slowly crystallizing. It's been around 12 hours, and about 10% has crystallized. My only explanation for this is that I didn't quite fully dehydrate the acetone that I was working with, and as the acetone evaporated more quickly than the water, the concentration of H2O in the solution became greater and greater until reaching a point at which the fumarate began to dissolve.


well there's your problem... Smile

Get some proper lab grade acetone (or a brand that is 99% pure), that will take care of this happening.

V
 
antrocles
#114 Posted : 6/10/2010 1:54:12 AM

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i got problems my brothers and sisters.....big, fat extraction issues...

here's the poop as it stands thus far:

1. did a STB tek with 1/2 lb. mimosa bark. mixed with a little less than a gallon of water and 1 lb. lye. dissolved lye in water in one jug then added it to the powder in another. what i'm left with is a gallon jug 3/4 full of soy sauce. perfect.

2. didn't do any defats....just added warm naphtha (200ml) and pulled. put in jar, straight in freezer. like you do...

3. did step 2 one more time in a separate pull jar and placed in freezer next to jar #1. again, totally according to plan.

i wanted to see how much spice would precip out because i was starting to think i had purchased some bunk bark. i found a special online you see....6 lbs for $250. i went for it hoping for the best. it arrived in 12 half-pound bags....how cool is that?? i figured it was a sign for me to diddle around with various teks to find the 'perfect' one...

i did two previous A/B teks and got horrible results. i think i'm just an STB guy at heart... Pleased anyways, this third time i thought i'd go with what i know to see if it was the tek or the bark that was not working.

couple hours later i peek in the freezie and there appears to be a good amount of magic crashing out. HOORAY!!

so...here's where things get funky... Confused

i'm running low on fumarate, so instead of going for a third and fourth naphtha pull, i decide to do two 200 ml xylene pulls to get everything out and convert it to fumarate. i do the pulls (piss yellow) and proceed to do a sodium carbonate wash on them. two sodium carb washes and one water wash (about 50 ml each go).

i add 2 grams of fumaric acid to 200ml acetone to make a super-saturated FASA and i add about 50 ml. to the cleaned xylene.

poof. cloudy. perfect.

i shake the bejeezus out of it and wait to see the magic crystals appear.

nothing. Shocked

i add a little more FASA.

exact same deal. Confused

like the moron i can be, i say screw it and add the whole lot to the xylene and shake it like a polaroid picture only to have bupkiss. nada. zilch. the big bagel...

NOW THEN: i KNOW i didn't snatch all of the magic out of 1/2 pound of MHRB with just two 200ml naphtha pulls. i KNOW in my heart that there is a bunch of spice in that xylene....after two hours, the jar has a little bit of oily yellow sludge on the sides but nary a single fumarate crystal. what do i do? is there a way to get the FASA out of the xylene and just try to evap the xylene down?

are there any tricks i can do to make this tragedy come good?

i'm prayin' over here....Rolling eyes

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OriginalFace
#115 Posted : 6/15/2010 1:53:10 AM

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Well bro', you're startin' to perpetuate the dumb jock myth Wink

The big problem with FASA is the requirement for anhydrous acetone. When the weather is humid, acetone sucks moisture from the air like a bikee sucks water from a bottle before a sprint.

A little bit of water,in the acetone, will dissolve a lot of spice fumarate so the solution(sic) is to add more water.

An excess of water will pull all the spice fumarate from the xylene, along with the acetone, and will produce two layers.

The top layer will be mostly clean xylene containing some plant fats and oils, the bottom layer will contain spicy fumarate and acetone.

Separate and evaporate to collect the goodies.

good luck, OF



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OriginalFace
#116 Posted : 6/15/2010 1:54:58 AM

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Speaking of dumb, I just noticed that you posted last week.

Hope my info is still useful.

OF


I want to be happy,
But I can't be happy,
'till I make you happy, too Pleased

In the province of the mind, there are no limits.

 
BGTM236
#117 Posted : 11/19/2010 10:37:20 AM
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I have ~4g of yellowish freebase powder. I plan on converting half of it to fumarate. Should I recrystalize all of it, or am i better off just using the powder to convert to fumarate.
 
XENONSION
#118 Posted : 4/26/2011 2:40:54 AM
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I as well am preparing to convert freebase into fumerate. I would strongly advise cleaning your freebase before proceeding. It may look white and pretty now, but IME the majority gonna be a dark mass when you dissolve it for recrxtling. safe that crap for smoking later, lol

I've a few questions. I've got very pure dmt freebase from and A/B extract cleaned over with heptane, crystal clear needles, like a beaker full of silk spiderweb needles. Got my anny acetone and fumaric acid. Question is I see the step that says after you have your dmt fumerate crystals...to was with more acetone. Could someone elaborate on this. In my case, what am I cleaning the fumerate of? Any excess fumaric acid I suppose?

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endlessness
#119 Posted : 4/26/2011 8:50:02 AM

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If you dissolve the freebase in acetone and add FASA for precipitation, there should be no excess fumaric acid (or not much), as opposed to for example using FASW to salt out fumarates from non-polar solvents, because when you evap that you will have some excess fumaric acid.

But yeah room temp dry acetone or IPA would wash away excess fumaric acid.

If you want you can do it with half of your batch and see how much yield is lost and how much cleaner it gets, to compare if its worth it to do in your case. Dont throw anything away until you have final results in.
 
XENONSION
#120 Posted : 4/27/2011 1:08:42 AM
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I see what you're saying. Basically if using the FASA method from step one, washing the dmt salt would be wise. In my case I think it'll be fine. Any excess acid should be minuscule.

I'm anxious to apply these methods to cactus!

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