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Trying to improve Acacia information Options
 
zombicyckel
#721 Posted : 10/5/2012 12:45:02 AM

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acacian wrote:


yeah acuminata is a good one.. or if you can get ahold of seeds for acacia phlebophylla its supposedly one of the purest sources of dmt out there


Nice! isnt acuminata as clean? Read that the narrow broad leafs are better. Tree wise, is the broad and narrow leaf tree the same? Also what yeilds can one expect from the leafs from acacia phlebophylla?(im going to check out this threads info about it, just throwing the question on there Smile ).

nen888 wrote:
..while the acuminata leaf sample tested by endlessness had more ß-carbolines than DMT, most people have been getting up to 1.5% (average 1.2%) mainly DMT from the leaves (up to 2% bark in some cases) ..no other acacia known has this high a total alkaloid content in the leaf..the ß-carbolines thing was probably due to the sample being the broad leaf variety (rather than narrow)


 

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zombicyckel
#722 Posted : 10/5/2012 7:49:58 AM

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Hmm thinking of this more, would the broadleaf species be better to grow? since the harvesting the leafs would be harder with the narrow one(since it only got spikes and flowers). Or does the flower % make up for it? Maybe growing them both would be a good idea.Also I guess with a STB the b-carbolines would be seperated. Any advice would be most welcome Smile Hmm finding seeds to the acacia phlebophylla was hard. What % can one expect from their flowers?
 
nen888
#723 Posted : 10/5/2012 9:04:57 AM
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..hi zombicycel..yeah, Acacia acuminata is probably the most recommended to grow..the narrow-leaf and/or small-seed variant are the very clean DMT profile varieties (with up to 1.5% in twigs, 1.2% phyllodes)..the broad leaf seems to have more betacarbolines than dmt in the phyllodes, making it a unique thing in itself (see p19 here for oral activity report)
..A. phlebophylla, while reported exclusively DMT from one test (the 1967 one), has had tryptamine reported from young leaves, and trace betacarbolines by a colleague..

..will have some new results soon Smile..oh..yeah, acacian, i think it was actually A. oxycedrus X sophorae which i tested and got very good results..so good there was no extract left to send endlessness by the time i discovered the nexus..that was NSW..also friends got a positive in Victoria..

..below, the GCMS results from endlessness of the A. acuminata narrow leaf strain phyllode extract..very 'clean', if that's what you want..
nen888 attached the following image(s):
AcuminataAL.jpg (103kb) downloaded 287 time(s).
 
zombicyckel
#724 Posted : 10/5/2012 9:42:51 AM

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Woah, thanks for sharing! Some good info right there, and sure enough that is one clean extract. What method did he use? thinking this could be fun growing a couple of them in a big pot. bringing them in beside a big window when the cold hits. Very attractive trees too, so it wont look strange at all. Thanks for taking your time to help



 
shaggy.money
#725 Posted : 10/5/2012 10:59:45 AM

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What percent is acacia aribica?
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. "
 
acacian
#726 Posted : 10/5/2012 11:49:47 AM

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thanks for the info nen Smile

yeah that makes sense about phleb and possible beta carbolines too.. an extract of the fallen leaves of a younger tree(probably about a meter and a half tall) had a far more slowed down effect and lasted around 25 minutes.. i remember distinctly thinking that there must have been another alkaloid in there and it turned out to be one of the most enjoyable experiences i've had. but i never explored it further as it was one of my first extracts and the literature said otherwise...it was also not crystalised but rather an oil so i thought maybe the oils had an impact on the effects. my experiences with taller phleb ever since though have lacked that and been more typical dmt

awesome bout the acuminata being so pure.. for some reason i thought i read that there were findings of nmt and betacarbolines in it as well. either way it does sound like the best candidate. these days for me its more preferable to have betacarbolines present as I really want to get that slowed effect again.. felt nicer than pure dmt

well i am still processing the phyllodes of oxycedrus at the moment.. literally took me an hr lastnight to get the spikes off just three branches he's a real tough cookie this tree. if i finish them tonight i will do an ethanol soak and then A/B tomorrow.. i'm fairly confident they are active due to their taste.. my housemate thought i was smoking dmt the other day when i had a cone of some ground phyllodes. i wont get my hopes up yet though Smile

will report results tomorrow
 
shanedudddy2
#727 Posted : 10/5/2012 12:13:13 PM

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I remember reading (early in this thread, I think) that young acacia (<5 years old) would primarily create non-DMT alkaloids, and only mature plants would create DMT alkaloids.
Is this true?
I was looking at growing a few Acacia Acuminata and was curious if the younger plants have DMT as a primary alkaloid. Has anyone extracted DMT from a young Acacia?
I would be looking to extract from the twigs and phyllodes (as suggested be nen88Cool.
I have patience to wait quite some time for the tree to grow for the long term gains, but unlikely several years (3+)
Thanks Smile
 
zombicyckel
#728 Posted : 10/5/2012 12:30:48 PM

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Sounds like it could be right, but maybe it develops faster in flowers. I dont know, hope somebody know. Either way, 5 years is worth it in the end. Time fly by like crazy
 
acacian
#729 Posted : 10/5/2012 1:19:08 PM

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yeah 5 years is worth it for a endlessly regenerating tryptamine source (or not endlessly as eventually they die... but if using phyllodes you'll probably never need to grow another tree for the amount of spice you'll smoke in one lifetime)
and theres no reason you cant do a few extractions here n there in the meantime to keep your entheogenic thirst quenched

..nen, i don't suppose you have any pics of the sophorae variant of oxycedrus? haven't been able to find any pics at all of the variants. i'm really looking forward to this extract if i get any.. sounds beautiful
 
nen888
#730 Posted : 10/6/2012 12:51:06 AM
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^..it's about 4-5 years to quite a large tree..i was being a bit conservative, and u mightn't have to wait that long..the young plants with simple tryptamine were about 2 years old..but this is still only a handful of tests really..e.g.acuminata (see here p.12) about 4-5 actual GCMS tests total (White 1957; Jeremy 2007; nen/endlessness 2011)
..and for the less patient for dmt (but willing to care for plants) you can start with a small tuft of Phalaris aquatica AQ1 strain, keep dividing it, and have a pretty fair amount of 1% DMT grass within 4-6 months..
so dmt is not hard to come by really..this thread is about appreciating and respecting the acacia ally..

zombicyckel wrote:
Quote:
sure enough that is one clean extract. What method did he use?
..a colleague did the acuminata leaf extraction (which endlessness tested) by boiling 3x in white vinegar, basifying with NaOH, and extracting with xylene..
.

 
acacian
#731 Posted : 10/6/2012 2:12:14 AM

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nen would you reccomend using xylene over shellite for the more full spectrum extracts?
 
nen888
#732 Posted : 10/6/2012 2:17:15 AM
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^..yes..i would recommend xylene, or hexane, over shellite any day..for a start, u don't have to do umpteen 'pulls'..and, personally, i want to know about all the alks in a plant, as i trust plants' wisdom over my human discrimination..
.

Quote:
..nen, i don't suppose you have any pics of the sophorae variant of oxycedrus? haven't been able to find any pics at all of the variants
..below's a botanical drawing (was on p14), i don't have any photos i'm afraid..note also that the hybrid form is not very common..
nen888 attached the following image(s):
oxycedrus X sophorae.GIF (20kb) downloaded 277 time(s).
 
acacian
#733 Posted : 10/6/2012 4:10:39 AM

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thats so true nen and i agree.. i'm really interested in differen't alkaloid synergies at the moment. would you reccomend deffatting with xylene too?

... and i must say, your attitude towards acacias really has taught me a lot over this past year and in ways helped me get to grips with my relationship with the trees. so i thankyou. the acacia tree has touched me deeply

update on oxycedrus... STILL puling the spikes off. i have been doing this for about 6 or 7 hrs now and am only up to 150g of spikes.. they weigh so little! the interesting thing though is that they taste very strongly of tryptamine so perhaps they have a higher percentage that makes up for the light weight or something. fingers getting progressively more sore. do you think that 150g would be a good enough indicator of alkaloid presence?
 
zombicyckel
#734 Posted : 10/6/2012 6:04:41 AM

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Totally worth the wait, besides I love growing plants Smile Nen: thanks for checking up the method, really appreciate it!
 
acacian
#735 Posted : 10/9/2012 4:39:40 AM

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well almost finished the extract of acacia oxycedrus just waiting on the xylene to evap. its a mild yellowy colour. logged the full process will upload when i find out whats in the xylene Smile
 
acacian
#736 Posted : 10/9/2012 7:45:05 AM

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seems to be dissapointing results on the oxycedrus. after evapping the xylene nothing was left but a small amount of yellow goo.. the goo is still drying and will bioassay it soon, but it doesn't smell like tryptamine. was expecting at least something out of the extract as when it was basified it cloudded up and had a strong reaction and the phyllodes tasted very much of dmt when smoked .. will try again on the stems this time.
...extraction log below:


205g fresh Acacia Oxycedrus phyllode spikes were oven dried at 70 degrees celsius and then ground and soaked in ethanol. the first soak was left to sit for 3 hrs, the second for roughly 9 hours. The ethanol pulls were combined and left to decant overnight.

A mixture of water, ethanol and vinegar at ph 4.75 was then added to the previously ethanol soaked phyllodes and was boiled for about an hour and then strained. This was repeated 3 times and the liquids combined and boiled down to roughly 800ml. The previous decanted ethanol pulls (roughly 400ml in volume) were added to the reduced acidic phyllode solution, and simmered for the next three hours until the ethanol was driven off.

The remaining liquid which was 500ml in volume was fridge decanted overnight and then filtered 4 times through cotton buds until there was no sediment left in the solution.

80ml xylene was added to a glass flask and left to sit for a few minutes in a pot of boiling water. The warm xylene was added to the acidic phyllode solution and mixed thoroughly without shaking to avoid emulsion. It was mixed for 5 minute intervals and then left to sit in a hot water bath to separate. This procedure of mixing, heat-bathing and separating was repeated four times.
The xylene layer was separated, and the acidic solution boiled for 2 minutes to drive off any remaining traces of xylene in the solution.

The solution was left in the fridge for an hour to cool down. 28g caustic soda was then slowly added to 150ml hot water and stirred until dissolved. The basic solution was added to the now defatted phyllode solution. Upon contact the solution instantly clouded up, indicating alkaloid precipitation. The solution immediately turned jet black after the initial clouding. The solution was left to sit for half an hr. Final ph came out at 13 (was aiming for 12)

100ml xylene was heat-bathed in a pot of boiling water for 5 minutes. The warm xylene was added to the basified phyllode solution. Mixed thoroughly for 7 minute periods and then heat-bathed in a large sink until the layers separated. this routine of mixing, heat-bathing and letting sit was repeated 5 times. The xylene was separated and left to evaporate in a glass dish. A small amount of sticky yellow goo was left over
 
acacian
#737 Posted : 10/12/2012 9:02:45 AM

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no noticeable effects after bioassay. tasted absoluteley horrid I might add. looks like this specimen wasn't active. i wonder what made the phyllodes taste so strong of spice. when i was smoking them the other night my housemate came in and said he could smell dmt
 
nen888
#738 Posted : 10/15/2012 7:05:12 AM
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..hmm..acacian let me get you to read the Acacia Extraction Workspace again..it's a workspace because the phyllode method is not 'perfected'..the implication of experiment3 is that, for phyllodes, maybe just acidified water is better..
the stuff with no effect and terrible taste is most likely Tar (see Index p1)..this is the beast that prevents you accessing your precious dmt..so for now, how about we go with the method used on acuminata phyllode with good result..3Xboil in white vingegar, basify with NaOH (around pH12.5-13.9), extract with xylene (or hexane) ..if dmt's in there, that should work..ignore nen's eccentric techniques..Smile
..and last up, for a first experiement on a species, i would respectfully (after asking and checking) take a couple of small stems with phyllode (say a couple of ft, c.5mm diameter) ..i would then begin by testing just the twig..this, if tryptamines are present, may be easier to extract than the phyllode..

thanks heaps for the work, as usual, acacian..Smile
 
Borris
#739 Posted : 10/16/2012 10:21:43 AM

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nen888 wrote:
..hmm..acacian let me get you to read the Acacia Extraction Workspace again..it's a workspace because the phyllode method is not 'perfected'..the implication of experiment3 is that, for phyllodes, maybe just acidified water is better..
the stuff with no effect and terrible taste is most likely Tar (see Index p1)..this is the beast that prevents you accessing your precious dmt..so for now, how about we go with the method used on acuminata phyllode with good result..3Xboil in white vingegar, basify with NaOH (around pH12.5-13.9), extract with xylene (or hexane) ..if dmt's in there, that should work..ignore nen's eccentric techniques..Smile
..and last up, for a first experiement on a species, i would respectfully (after asking and checking) take a couple of small stems with phyllode (say a couple of ft, c.5mm diameter) ..i would then begin by testing just the twig..this, if tryptamines are present, may be easier to extract than the phyllode..

thanks heaps for the work, as usual, acacian..Smile


Experiment 3 suggests that alcohol(methylated spirits) saves you time/heat i.e only one boil or less.

BUT alcohol seems to be miscible with most off the shelf solvents (shellite, tolulene, etc) rendering them useless.

Sooo... one must spend the extra time in adding water just to boil off the alcohol (frowny face).

QUESTION:
= is there an obtainable solvent, NOT miscible with ethanol?

= could you then just basify the ethanol and pull? (no water involved)

= methylated spirits (diggers) is so cheap
. (95-4.9-0.1 | ethanol,water,bitter agent).
. I cant see any toxins i.e methanol that would be harmful so am curious why
. people waste so much time with water / acid...:-)
 
endlessness
#740 Posted : 10/16/2012 1:19:26 PM

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But you can just let the alcohol evaporate to yield your impure extract which then you extract with organic solvent, so miscibility isnt an issue.

BTW, "bitter agent" , which? Its important to know solubility to se if it isnt something that will come across to final product, or something that breaks down into a toxic compound when under extraction conditions, etc

Also, while methanol is toxic so dont drink it or breathe vapors, it is volatile, will evaporate (faster than ethanol), so if you make sure it is a clean methanol, work in well ventilated area and make sure your product is properly dry, using methanol isnt any problem.
 
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