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Joe Rogan good or bad? Options
 
Voidmatrix
#301 Posted : 5/2/2021 6:55:54 PM

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I'm not taking sides, but have a few observations.

First, the only people I have noticed Bill attack in this thread has been Joe, antivaxxers, and some guests on Joe's podcast. So the only way someone was really attacked in this thread is if they are an antivaxxer. He's been sardonic and sarcastic many times, but it seems to be a method for getting his point across. He's cussed, but has permission. I saw anger, passion, and resolve.

Second, this is an online forum. You're not obligated to acknowledge anything from anyone else here. If you feel someone is aggressive then ignore them.

Third, the title of this is "Joe Rogan good or bad?" and Bill added his two cents which is definitely his prerogative. It's a post whose implicit nature is to cast opinions in an attempt to manifest a dialogue. That doesn't mean that every post need be acknowledged.

Fourth, in defending a position, if to have a productive discourse, one should be ready to acknowledge bias on their own part. Example: I am biased against Joe. For me, despite his caveats, people still hang on his word, neglect to do their own research, take his thoughts, opinions, and interpretations at face value and seriously, and adopt his behavior and thinking. That's what happens with celebrities. While under the law they have a right to express themselves, at the level of influence the reside in they have a further moral imperative to filter themselves and sacrifice some of their freedom of speech in a effort to mitigate harm on multiple levels. I think telling people not to get vaccinated is ignorant, naive, and reckless. He's not a medical professional, and by his own admission, not very well informed. So, someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, encouraging something that they are unaware of is irresponsible and shows he talks too much.

Here's the rub, that bit above is MY SUBJECTIVE view. I could be wrong. I could be neglecting considerations that also impact the issue. I have biases; I am for vaccines, I think people are sheep generally, I think celebrities have too much pull and power, etc. All things that color my thinking on the topic. Acknowledging this allows me to interact with others productively as well as augment my thinking when necessary. It allows me to not get so emotionally invested and upset. So try to check biases in order to really understand someone else's side, even if it's in conflict with your own view. Check what things you may have shrugged off that Joe said. Check what things he's said that you've clung onto, whether positive or negative.

We are a community and in some ways like family. No one agrees with anyone about everything. Something to get used to. Show love, show understanding, and let's all grow.

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Question everything... including questioning everything...
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All posts, responses, ideas and supposed experiences are that of an imaginary interdimensional being . This being comes to you with the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. That being said, everything posted must, perhaps, be taken lightly and with a grain of salt. 👽
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
hug46
#302 Posted : 5/2/2021 7:43:23 PM

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dragonrider wrote:

Problem is that a repressive attitude will make people like alex jones say:"see, we're being silenced, they've got something to hide". And that will seem like a credible argument to many people who already have their doubts.



Anyone who takes Alex Jones seriously in the first place is beyond talking to.

I am devils advocate type guy. I appreciate the talking through of things to maybe find some kind of beneficial evolution of a discussed concept. But time is not on side for us to try and cajole people into seeing a certain point of view in order to save lives.

Most of the people i know personally who rant on about vaccines/confinements and lack of civil liberties have grown up in a comparatively liberal age. They have no real concept or experience of loss of civil liberties. It may be an extreme analogy but do you think that when Hitler invaded europe everyone sat around saying "we need to have a discussion about this"? Do you think that during the blitz people were moaning about personal freedom by having to keep their lights turned off?

At the end of the day Joe should just say that he was wrong. It's kind of like using a get out of jail free card to say... "i'm a moron don;t listen to me..." What is so bad about admitting that you are wrong??? It would probably quite cathartic for him. Like a purge.


 
Voidmatrix
#303 Posted : 5/2/2021 7:54:57 PM

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hug46 wrote:
Anyone who takes Alex Jones seriously in the first place is beyond talking to.


^^ omg, that has me dying😂.

Admission of being wrong is growth.

Something else, relative to those who rant about vaccines and civil liberties, if they went to public school, then they received several vaccinations. It's a mandate. It's law. So why the fuss now? Makes me think of gun rights advocates that say, "the government can't tell me what kinds of firearms I can and can't have." One cannot legally own a functional rocket launcher. They've already been stating what can and can't be owned...

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Question everything... including questioning everything...
There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
The only safe place is the choice you make
All posts, responses, ideas and supposed experiences are that of an imaginary interdimensional being . This being comes to you with the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. That being said, everything posted must, perhaps, be taken lightly and with a grain of salt. 👽
 
RhythmSpring
#304 Posted : 5/2/2021 9:22:45 PM

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First of all, no one is "good" or "bad." People are complex animals. They contain multitudes. People are right about some things, wrong about others. People are nice in some respects, mean in others. So the question outright is pretty problematic. Joe is Joe. He's bald. He's smart. He's charismatic.

Secondly, for those of you talking about mandatory vaccinations being the rule,

a) The argument that "this is the way it's always been done" is not an actual argument, and

b) There are religious exemption laws, too.

Peace.
From the unspoken
Grows the once broken
 
Voidmatrix
#305 Posted : 5/2/2021 9:46:38 PM

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RhythmSpring wrote:
First of all, no one is "good" or "bad." People are complex animals. They contain multitudes. People are right about some things, wrong about others. People are nice in some respects, mean in others. So the question outright is pretty problematic. Joe is Joe. He's bald. He's smart. He's charismatic.

Secondly, for those of you talking about mandatory vaccinations being the rule,

a) The argument that "this is the way it's always been done" is not an actual argument, and

b) There are religious exemption laws, too.

Peace.


I am assuming you may be replying to me in your a) Smile. Definitely not using it as an argument of "that's how it's always been," (because I too find it invalid). My point is more, to those against this particular vaccine, that have also, presumably had several others (to go to public school), why this one and why now? Vaccinations are provided everyday (mainly to children) with little to no negative side effects, as evidenced by the plethora of people griping about a vaccine that have, at one time or another been vaccinated.The capabilities of development of new vaccines is only accelerating, especially with the technological advancement of CRISPR. The second point of the same statement can be reframed by the question (posed to someone against the vaccine): are you upset by the other vaccines you've recieved that protected your health, and you are fine from?

Overall, I do agree with you, the question is a bit limited, since no one is, under some absolute framework, "good" or "bad." Our current nature and condition is too vast.

One love
Question everything... including questioning everything...
There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
The only safe place is the choice you make
All posts, responses, ideas and supposed experiences are that of an imaginary interdimensional being . This being comes to you with the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. That being said, everything posted must, perhaps, be taken lightly and with a grain of salt. 👽
 
endlessness
#306 Posted : 5/2/2021 9:59:41 PM

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Bill Cipher wrote:


But Rogan’s popularity is owed in part for his vocal rejection of “political correctness,” which can take the form of transphobia (he once called trans woman mixed martial artist Fallon Fox “a fucking man”), Islamophobia (hosting guests like the far-right Proud Boys founder Gavin McInnes, who used his appearance to argue that Muslims are too inbred for the US to accept as immigrants), and racism (he once compared a black neighborhood to Planet of the Apes).


I'm not gonna defend everything Joe says because he has certainly said a lot of stupid things, as well as some of his guests, but I'd like a bit more context on what you just said. When did he say each of those things and what was the context, before and after ? It's easy to get sound bytes, make click bait headlines and crucify someone if you don't hear the whole context.

For example, the trans woman comment. A trans woman can consider herself a woman all she wants, I'm all for their rights, but in the context of participating in a mixed martial arts fight, I do NOT think trans women should fight with cis-woman because they have an unfair advantage. An unfair advantage in tennis, I don't give a damn, it's just a small ball going back and forth, but an unfair advantage in a martial art means potentially permanent damage to the opponent or even death. Maybe that's what Joe was hinting at?

Bill Cipher wrote:

I don't really get the cancel culture references here. He has 10 million podcast subscribers. That requires more personal responsibility in my opinion than saying "I'm a moron, don't listen to me" in response to blowback from making dangerous and irresponsible recommendations to an audience who IS going to listen to him regardless.


I disagree. Not to repeat myself but I don't think you can hold a non-expert responsible for the stupid decision of others if that non-expert even disclaimed nobody should listen to him. The number of followers is irrelevant given that consideration imo.

I think personal responsibility is in the listener. There is a near infinite amount of misinformation around the world, imo that is a lost battle to want to eliminate it, but not a lost battle to educate people to learn how to sift through that information.

Bill Cipher wrote:

There are laws preventing someone from yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theatre. This is not protected as free speech in this country, and I fail to see how using a platform with as much reach as his to discourage people from being vaccinated in the midst of the biggest global pandemic in 100 years is anything other than yelling fire in a theatre of 10 million.


An immediate direct stampede from shouting fire in a public place giving no time to those involved to get the context of what is being shouted, is not comparable with the opinion of a non-expert talking about a subject in long format and giving disclaimers, giving plenty of time for people to inform themselves regarding what is being said.

Bill Cipher wrote:

It's going to result in people dying, and if you want to look at holding him accountable for his words and actions as cancel culture, then yes, I'm all for it. The FCC can levy fines. He can be de-platformed. I'd love to see either or both.


You are supposing those deaths Joe is causing... It's an unproven hypothesis that people who were otherwise going to take vaccines, listened to Rogan and decided not to, plus that they infected others, plus that these others died.

Also I completely disagree with cancel culture and I think this is a very dangerous slippery slope. Some people would say the drug use talk you make here can also lead to deaths and would love to de-platform you/us too... Who gets to decide? You can say those are different things, and of course I agree, but the point is not whether the two things are the same, but what is the limit of freedom of speech and who gets to decide it?

Bill Cipher wrote:

Regarding my thoughts about anti-vaxxers, that's where I'm at and I'm going to express them. I think they're pariahs, plain and simple; selfish, self-centered, deluded death cultists.


Joe Rogan said himself he was going to take the vaccine, can he be considered an anti-vaxxer? Is raising any doubt about any vaccine = anti-vaxxer? Are there only two camps, a full 100% defending every single vaccine in every single case, or being an anti-vaxxer and going against every single vaccine in every single case? IMO this black and white thinking is very harmful too.

Bill Cipher wrote:

I would like to see vaccination as mandatory for employment, air travel, school enrollment, government assistance, etc., and anyone who's cashed a stimulus check within the past year and refuses to get the shot, I would like to see them made to repay it with interest and face warrants if they fail to do so.


I disagree... Again a slippery slope to let the government mandate what you put or don't put in your body. I'm more in favor of devoting to education and research instead of forcing people to do anything.



Hug46 wrote:

Good point. And i agree very much about education. The difference being that ICU and recovery units are not being filled beyond capacity with drug users and people with bad diets. This is an extreme situation where time is not a luxury. How bad does a pandemic have to be before people stop worrying about losing their civil liberties from being told to use a "harmless" vaccine?


This is a bad comparison though, because most definitely not all the people in the hospital are in that position because they were infected by an anti-vaxxer. In fact, many people would love to have the vaccine but they don't have access to it, me included. So even being pro-vaccines, one can be spreading the virus just the same as an anti-vaxxer at this point.

So until you can really offer vaccine to all people, and everybody who does want has already gotten it and only anti-vaxxers are left out, only then can we really compare those things.
 
dithyramb
#307 Posted : 5/2/2021 10:26:43 PM

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I am not interested in getting a vaccine. Does that make me an "anti vaxxer," a "death cult lemming," a "dog afraid of the vacuum cleaner?" Am I total scum, scourge of the earth, the reason for millions of people dying, an embarrassment of humanity?

This hate propaganda is by no means restricted to the discussion here. Does nobody really see the blatant rise of fascism happening around the whole world?

That vaccinating the majority of the human population is the definite and only solution to the pandemic is reductionist, and it is an assumption. There are legitimate, scientific, logical concerns over this position. I do not wish to get into a discussion about this and will leave with this note.
 
endlessness
#308 Posted : 5/2/2021 10:33:35 PM

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dithyramb wrote:
I am not interested in getting a vaccine.


Why not?


dithyramb wrote:

That vaccinating the majority of the human population is the definite and only solution to the pandemic is reductionist, and it is an assumption. There are legitimate, scientific, logical concerns over this position.


Such as?

dithyramb wrote:

I do not wish to get into a discussion about this and will leave with this note.


Too late, you're getting dragged in now Very happy
 
dragonrider
#309 Posted : 5/2/2021 10:51:04 PM

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hug46 wrote:
dragonrider wrote:

Problem is that a repressive attitude will make people like alex jones say:"see, we're being silenced, they've got something to hide". And that will seem like a credible argument to many people who already have their doubts.



Anyone who takes Alex Jones seriously in the first place is beyond talking to.

I am devils advocate type guy. I appreciate the talking through of things to maybe find some kind of beneficial evolution of a discussed concept. But time is not on side for us to try and cajole people into seeing a certain point of view in order to save lives.

Most of the people i know personally who rant on about vaccines/confinements and lack of civil liberties have grown up in a comparatively liberal age. They have no real concept or experience of loss of civil liberties. It may be an extreme analogy but do you think that when Hitler invaded europe everyone sat around saying "we need to have a discussion about this"? Do you think that during the blitz people were moaning about personal freedom by having to keep their lights turned off?

At the end of the day Joe should just say that he was wrong. It's kind of like using a get out of jail free card to say... "i'm a moron don;t listen to me..." What is so bad about admitting that you are wrong??? It would probably quite cathartic for him. Like a purge.



I sometimes feel this way as well.

But i don't see an alternative to just having these discussions right now.

And i have seen people come around on corona related issues.
Some people are beyond reason. But not all people are.

But yes, it also pisses me off sometimes, how some people just pretend there is no covid. When i see people ignoring the social distancing rules, wich is almost daily, i sometimes fake some realy bad and loud coughs. Like i'm almost choking.

They usually stay at least a few meters away from me then.
 
hug46
#310 Posted : 5/2/2021 10:58:40 PM

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endlessness wrote:




Hug46 wrote:

Good point. And i agree very much about education. The difference being that ICU and recovery units are not being filled beyond capacity with drug users and people with bad diets. This is an extreme situation where time is not a luxury. How bad does a pandemic have to be before people stop worrying about losing their civil liberties from being told to use a "harmless" vaccine?


This is a bad comparison though, because most definitely not all the people in the hospital are in that position because they were infected by an anti-vaxxer. In fact, many people would love to have the vaccine but they don't have access to it, me included. So even being pro-vaccines, one can be spreading the virus just the same as an anti-vaxxer at this point.

So until you can really offer vaccine to all people, and everybody who does want has already gotten it and only anti-vaxxers are left out, only then can we really compare those things.


I don't think that you have understood the point that i was trying to make. It may be that i have badly explained it. You are comparing people being forced to having a vaccine to drug control or preventing people from using cars because they are potentially dangerous and my reply to that is that during a world health crisis where millions of people are dying in the space of a year, if you are a healthy person you should have the vaccine. We are living in extreme times where measures to curb spread have to be taken.
If you want to go the slippery slope route, again i say how bad does it have to be before you agree to mandatory vaccines (for those who do not have any underlying conditions that may be aggravated)?

..
 
Bill Cipher
#311 Posted : 5/2/2021 11:06:47 PM

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dithyramb wrote:
I am not interested in getting a vaccine. Does that make me an "anti vaxxer," a "death cult lemming," a "dog afraid of the vacuum cleaner?" Am I total scum, scourge of the earth, the reason for millions of people dying, an embarrassment of humanity?


There's a social contract we all live under. Getting vaccinated is part of that; not just to protect ourselves, but to collectively stamp out the virus so that it doesn't kill millions more. If you're not interested in that, then yes, I would say at minimum that makes you a pretty bad neighbor.

But that's fine. Just don't ever leave your home from now on. Don't go out to the grocery store. Don't go out to buy weed. Just stay home at all times and don't ever breathe on anyone.

dithyramb wrote:
This hate propaganda is by no means restricted to the discussion here. Does nobody really see the blatant rise of fascism happening around the whole world?


The problem here is that you don't understand the definition of the word Fascism. If you did, you would know that it's not even remotely applicable to what's being discussed. I recommend a dictionary.

dithyramb wrote:
That vaccinating the majority of the human population is the definite and only solution to the pandemic is reductionist, and it is an assumption. There are legitimate, scientific, logical concerns over this position.


There are not. That's complete fiction.



 
hug46
#312 Posted : 5/2/2021 11:09:10 PM

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dragonrider wrote:


But i don't see an alternative to just having these discussions right now.

Which is what we are doing. I am not angry towards people that do not want to take the vaccine but i think that if you are able to have it, you should have it....
 
Voidmatrix
#313 Posted : 5/2/2021 11:25:20 PM

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endlessness wrote:
Too late, you're getting dragged in now


Bahahaha😂😂😂

No dithyramb, I know I don't think that about you. I may completely disagree with you and have thoughts and opinions connected to that. But simply, you operate off of different biases than I do. You're still accepted by meSmile.

United by DMT we stand!

I am presently waiting to get my second shot and find it refreshing the amount of people getting vaccinated at this location. Have never been happy to wait in line before lol.

One love
Question everything... including questioning everything...
There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
The only safe place is the choice you make
All posts, responses, ideas and supposed experiences are that of an imaginary interdimensional being . This being comes to you with the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. That being said, everything posted must, perhaps, be taken lightly and with a grain of salt. 👽
 
Bill Cipher
#314 Posted : 5/2/2021 11:31:46 PM

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Voidmatrix wrote:
I am presently waiting to get my second shot and find it refreshing the amount of people getting vaccinated at this location. Have never been happy to wait in line before lol.


Make room for some sack time. You may not feel great tomorrow. My wife and a bunch of other people I know were hit fairly hard by the second one (but not the first).

I had the J&J - one and done. I felt awful the next day, and 24 hours later perfectly fine.
 
Voidmatrix
#315 Posted : 5/2/2021 11:39:58 PM

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Bill Cipher wrote:
Voidmatrix wrote:
I am presently waiting to get my second shot and find it refreshing the amount of people getting vaccinated at this location. Have never been happy to wait in line before lol.


Make room for some sack time. You may not feel great tomorrow. My wife and a bunch of other people I know were hit fairly hard by the second one (but not the first).

I had the J&J - one and done. I felt awful the next day, and 24 hours later perfectly fine.


Good looking out. I appreciate you. I've heard that as well. I got Pfizer so we'll see how it goes. Definitely started feeling arm pain immediately with this one. Currently waiting to see if there are any negative side effects before heading home.

One love
Question everything... including questioning everything...
There's so much I could be wrong about and have no idea...
The only safe place is the choice you make
All posts, responses, ideas and supposed experiences are that of an imaginary interdimensional being . This being comes to you with the proclivity and compulsion for delving in depths it shouldn't. That being said, everything posted must, perhaps, be taken lightly and with a grain of salt. 👽
 
RoundAbout
#316 Posted : 5/3/2021 1:06:20 AM

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I do wonder what the differences between the on-air and off-air opinions of some of his more knowledgeable guests are. I can imagine they are more nuanced, but are not reactionary like Joe Rogan's general interpretation. But then again he was mocking people for wearing masks while spending time with these experts, so I'm probably giving him too much credit.

When he is a bro amongst bros (often when he puts a branded ball cap on, lol) he doesn't seem to provide much balance to the conversation on social issues. Explicit social signaling: I currently cannot stand listening to him.

endlessness wrote:
Bill Cipher was chosen as the sole person to not be restrained by the attitude rules. Even Trav, the admin, or other mods like me, we still have to abide by the attitude page.

This was done because we think the forum should definitely be a peaceful place with good attitude. At the same time, long ago we decided felt that to deal with certain trolls and people with bad attitude coming to the forum, they needed a verbal "slap in the face", someone that ruthlessly tells the truth.

Group discussions tend to bring some nuance. The chosen enforcer seems to have enough confidence in their own views to make digital effigies of the people they hate being brutally tortured. Now we're talking about Joe Rogan's freakishly bloated basketball sized head like it's relevant. Similar zeal.
 
Jagube
#317 Posted : 5/3/2021 11:17:12 AM

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We are full of biases.
And that's because we evolved to learn from our direct experience and not from scientific data with thousands of samples collected from all over the world. Our ancestors would see a friend get bitten by a snake and die and they would learn to avoid that snake. If the snake was not really that dangerous and the person died because of a rare allergy, they would likely never have found that out. In a different village they would see someone get bitten by the same snake and be fine, but the other village wouldn't have learned from it because it was 50 miles away and they would never have met or shared results.

Things that happen to us and our loved ones naturally have more significance to us, but they can skew our views on what's right.

If you've had covid or lost someone to it, you know how terrible a disease it is; someone who hasn't, or has only seen mild symptoms, may think it's like the flu and the whole thing is a hoax and a conspiracy.

The vaccines are not 100% safe and the same thing applies.
I'm sorry for ShamanisticVibes' loss that's being investigated in relation to a vaccine.

The virus kills and the vaccines do too, but if the virus kills 1 in 100 or 1000, and the vaccines kill 1 in a million or even 1 in 10,000, it's a no-brainer.
Of course it may be different for different age groups etc. and it's only data that can inform in this regard.

I've recently read an article about someone who had lost their sibling to a vaccine. Despite that horrible bereavement, they still encouraged people to get vaccinated. I was touched by that. They managed to rise above the instinct of bias.

If you get vaccinated and die because of it, your decision to get vaccinated was still the best choice you could have made. Your death doesn't change that; it was probabilistic. You made the best decision based on the data that was available and got unlucky.

In the same way that if you buy a lottery ticket for $1 and win a million, your decision to buy the ticket was bad, because the expected value of your profit was negative. You made a stupid decision; a decision to lose maybe $0.99 on average, but you got lucky and won $1,000,000 against your expectations and maybe you can retire now.
 
dragonrider
#318 Posted : 5/3/2021 11:38:44 AM

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dithyramb wrote:
I am not interested in getting a vaccine. Does that make me an "anti vaxxer," a "death cult lemming," a "dog afraid of the vacuum cleaner?" Am I total scum, scourge of the earth, the reason for millions of people dying, an embarrassment of humanity?

This hate propaganda is by no means restricted to the discussion here. Does nobody really see the blatant rise of fascism happening around the whole world?

That vaccinating the majority of the human population is the definite and only solution to the pandemic is reductionist, and it is an assumption. There are legitimate, scientific, logical concerns over this position. I do not wish to get into a discussion about this and will leave with this note.

Worldwide, 3.2 million people have died of covid over the past 13 months.

The amount of people who nearly died and had to spent several weeks in total isolation in an icu is a multitude of that.

The amount of people who got so seriously ill they had to be taken to the hospital is a multitude of that.

I don't think there are very precise data yet on people who devellop long covid, but it is not very rare.

In the united states alone, 299 people have died of covid yesterday, wich is a relatively small number compared with the average daily amount of deaths in februari. But still it's a passenger plane full of people dying, every single day.

It is definately true that vaccines will not offer a 100% immunity against the virus. But it's the best we've got, and they seem to be very effective so far.
It is the only quick way out of this crisis.

Serious side effects are extremely rare. Less than 1 in 100.000.

The reason some governments quit using the astra zeneca vaccine, is that if people die of covid, even if it is ten or a hundred times as many, they only die because of the virus. But if people die from the vaccine, it's somebody's fault.

And in our system, politicians don't like to be held responsible for anything, so they rather let a few hundred people die, than be responsible for one single death.

This may have given the impression that the astra zeneca vaccine is dangerous. But that impression is wrong.

The chance of getting trombosis on a long flight is much higher, than getting it from any of the vaccines.

The chance of getting covid eventually, is estimated to be 80%. The fatality rate differs with age, but is currently somewhere between 0.5% and 2.5%.

0.8 multiplied by 0.005 is way more than 0.00001. So the fear for the vaccine is not realy very rational.

I think that our coward leaders have done infinitely more damage this way, than joe rogan ever could.
 
ColorfulElfBoy
#319 Posted : 5/3/2021 2:37:41 PM
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Can we all agree that Joe is Bald at least?

 
endlessness
#320 Posted : 5/3/2021 9:28:54 PM

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Last visit: 29-Jul-2021
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LOL yes we can agree on that Very happy
 
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