Hey all,

Was watching snippets on the spirit molecule movie site.

One of the interviewees [Marko Rodriguez] mentioned potential systems for communicating with potential 'entities' to 'prove' their existence.

This involved obtaining proofs of novel information [i.e. that the person undergoing the DMT experience] wouldn't have been able to carry out or produce themselves from the communication with the beings/entities. [for example prime factors of large numbers].
i.e. run some tests to prove that the internal cognition of the individual on DMT could not have generated this information.

So -
Who is up for designing or collating a series of tests that could be used for determining communication with other intelligences to take into DMT space and see what the results were.

if there were e.g. 10 standard easy to carry out tests that covered a variety of factors
e.g. math [prime factors that Marko recommended] and some other cognitive psychology type tests
that could be run by members of the nexus and submitted and then assessed we might get some empirical information as to whether these systems will provide useful information regarding the experiences in DMT space of these beings.

How to carry out these tests [methodology] could be placed as a section in the wiki to ensure that it is as standardized as possible for users.

any ideas appreciated

Seems to me that this experiment presupposes that the hyperdimensional entities in question are better at math, or somehow more intelligent, than we are. If the experimenter is able to come up with the prime number in question, wouldn't the more parsimonious explanation be that dmt makes you good at math? Exactly upon what grounds is the assumption that answers must be from an entity being made? A researcher shouldn't be assuming qualities for an entity that he has yet to demonstrate empirically, I think. I am not particularly impressed with the proposal as it has been made, so far. Too many unsupported assumptions are included with the initial premise. This being said, I must point out that regular communion with an alleged entity is something I have experienced; the difficulty of objectively demonstrating the organism, however, is an entirely different problem.

something tells me they would find this kind of procedure very, very amusing.

i totally agree,
the 'assessments' i've been playing with [e.g. asking names/who they are etc] usually elicits strong amusement from them
and i imagine Math problems would probably have similar results.

however,
I would imagine that there could be some theoretical tests [or a number of them] that could be applied within DMT space that could provide useful knowledge from an empirical perspective from 'this side'.

Possible consequences of this could be
e.g.
An active field of 'allowed' research where academics could carry out funded studies instead of having to do it on the sly or risk backlash or prejudice for wanting to study something so beautiful and interesting.
No hassles from 'the man' re DMT culture and taking it.


True and agreed.
Math could just be one of the tests of course

it's worth having a read of Marko's paper as it might provide a useful starting block to work from

http://markorodriguez.co...es_files/paralleldmt.pdf

The entities from my experiences and friends predominantly seem keen for interaction and tend to say come back soon and enjoy the interaction etc
An active field of legal research could open up new pathways to [if they are real] spend more time in DMT space and a system of even deeper and more involved interaction.

My guess is that in the middle of a deep experience the last thing on your mind is feeding academic intellectualism.

Agreed,

but that argument also follows for a nice day scuba diving,
yet look at all the important work marine biologists, Jacque Cousteau etc have done and how that made us appreciate and take care of the world that we live in and increase our understanding of the beauty and importance of connecting with it.
Equally compare to Strassmans and the DMT volunteers work in the spirit molecule that opened out so much [and is referenced on this site so often].

Obviously this kind of work wouldn't be for everyone,
[and is best carried out with a solid methodology, experimental procedure etc].
But precursor experiments could be set up as a preliminary test scenario that could provide impetus or basic data for a more consolidated set of experiments.

i bet Burnt could come up with a really unbiased research here...
ahem...

I think one interesting test is to see what language they can communicate it. Many people here are from different countries and speak different native languages. So I think one interesting question is do the entities communicate in your native language or not? I would imagine they do because they are aspects of your self but anyway its one thing to think about.

As far as showing novel knowledge thats a tough one. There needs to be questions that can't be answered by a human in any other way and they also need to be answerable by a hyperspace being that might just be a product of imagination but if its not it needs a fair question.

In SWIM's experience, entities speak telepathically, so it comes in his native language. He's never heard the words with his ears, just in his mind.
One would have to ask questions that one does not yet know the answers to, then find out the answer afterwards.

But how can we assume that the entity would know the answer? Or would want to answer?

What other traits besides answering questions could show that they are independent beings?

For me the entities always act independently from my will.

For instance I may ask them to "show me something again", or to "move to the left" but they never comply.

Its not just about asking them either. I try to "will" them to do as I wish yet they continue doing whatever it is they do regardless of what I want.

Does that not show the entities to be independent, with their own free will?

I can't wiggle my ears, either.

not necessarily unfortunately,
correlation doesn't imply causation.

Equally there are many processes that you can be aware of in your own body that your will can't directly control.
It could for example be similar to dream states** where dream characters do their own thing, appear to have independant free willed action.
of course you can train yourself in lucid dreaming and then influence things more strongly,
but you still can't will things like adjusting light levels etc.

Hence the possible need to develop some more robust systems to investigate this phenomenon.

**from memory the 5-HT2a receptor is one of the main receptors that DMT binds to is also associated with the dreaming.

Sidenote:

In my experience, telepathic communication works on an entirely different level than oral communication. Telepathic communication is like intuitive understanding, which doesn't involve words at all. We are equipped with a sort of "translating machine" which can be used to convert the understanding gained telepathically into words of a spoken language, but this is a secondary process (bringing down something from timelessness to time).

I believe that the primary understanding - as it doesn't require language - is the same for everyone. But when we try to express it, then it gets filtered through us, so the expressions become unique. Two different expressions of the same thing may even seem contradictory ( like the example of the glass being "half full" or "half empty" ).

It would be interesting to record entity contact in the brain with an fMRI method. Then you could compare fMRI of brains dreaming, or conversing with a real human, or some other kind of entity like stimuli. I think some interesting patterns would show up. But that's clinical level.

We need experiments that individuals can conduct on themselves at least to get some progress on this.

totally,

these could be added into the wiki so people could access them,

a thread or sub group could be set up for people to discuss results or to fine tune tests.

the first question then perhaps could be,
what are the test to be?
Rodriguez has provided a basic one re prime # factors.
[which we'd need to define some large primes for (and then maybe hold the answers secret or just for a sub moderator to collate/assess).

What other types of tests could be set up then [i.e. categories]

One interesting thing might be to have different people who frequently have these encounters to ask the beings the same question. A simple question. Like where are from? What is your name? Just something I can't think of a good question.

The entities might respond the same way each time or respond differently each time.

i am asking...(and i do this 'telepathically'...and i ask this question not only 'the aliens' but 'the humans', 'the animals' and 'the plants' as well):

WHAT CAN I LEARN FROM YOU???

and...believe me or not...it depends all on myself and my awareness whether i hear (telepathically) a response or not!

I've had a brief email exchange with Marko Rodriguez about this very subject. He said that he and Stallman were going to be releasing some data in the next year or so! Not only from DMT in particular, but high dosages of other tryptamines as well.

I know a few will mildly scoff, but this is the single most fascinating element about DMT for me.


Did anyone ever watch this youtube video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peRknkX2crk

Its Dennis M. talking about alien contact, DNA, and DMT. Pretty interesting to think about!

its interesting, in working with psychotics and the mentally ill who hear voices swim has had to do lots of research on the subject to help aid them in developing coping skills for decreasing their symptoms.
When some one is hearing voices what we have found is that the part of the brain that is responsible for hearing is not the part of the brain that is active. the part of the brain that is active is the part of the brain responsible for inner speech, or inner dialog. What is occurring is that they have disassociated from the inner dialog and it appears as other, other there is a split where they have inner dialog still but also there are other voices that are communicating with them, some times it seems as if its in their head and some times it appears to be coming from outside of them, thus they report they hear voices.
What is really interesting is that communication with entities or with harmala containing plants gives the impression that one is hearing voices in ones head. SWIm feels that this is most likely the exact same phenomena that is occurring with schizophrenics. this is also the same phenomena that occurs when one is dreaming we precieve another entity ( uncle bob or a dog, your wife,or boss ect) as being other, but ultimately the other in our dream that is talking and interacting with us is all our mind. its us... no one else but us. but we preceive this aspect of our own mind as autonomous, individual from our own mind and separate. The reality of it is no matter who speaks to me in a dream no matter how meaningful the information that is me talking... and the same goes for schizophrenics...
Now does the same apply for the entity contact with entheogens...
SWIM tends to think it does...
How ever this does not mean that swim is rationalizing dreams, hearing voices, or entheogens away...in fact swim thinks that what this points out to is even more interesting... This to swim points out that the buddhsits have it right when they say one mind many bodies... that ultimately there is one mind that manifests in infinite forms. that these entities can speak to us through our own inner dialog because essentially there is only one mind, its a field and the nervous system is its receiver... like the force on star wars lol. well kinda... i just liked the movie men who stare at goats lol
There is a point however where SWIM believes that one is only dealing with ones own frame of reference of this one mind. What people call I, self, ego, ect... Are schizofrenics really hearing voices of an other entity... well there technically is not an other... but are their individual refference point we call "our" mind what they are dealing with. yes swim beleives so 9 times out of 10, that is whats happening. they are disasociating from their own inner dialog.
Now when it comes to tripping, meditation, dreams, trance states... swim feels that about 5 times out of 10 people are working with projections from their own mind that they perceive as autonomous and other... and five times out of ten they are dealing with an autonomous being that is still one with that one mind. This is some what of a Buddhist conceptualization, and not really my own. In order to tell the difference between if its your own mind or another member of the collective mind we are all apart of, one needs to learn how to stop projecting onto consciousness and shaping it unconsciously and one does that by learning how to drop the individual sense of self and learn to precieve self form the frame of reference as being part of that whole, this is what some have come to call shamanic ecstasy, swim sees this as dropping the I or ego, long enough to get somethings done in hyper space.

Thats SWIMS thoughts on it... SWIM works with people who hear voices all day long every day... So swims developed a relevant and yet unique way of looking at it... because give swim a head full of medicine and swims hearing them too...